The m19 doesn't need any change, its function is to give a better chance to kill at long range than a Bar. You trying to do 1 vs 1 scenarios against a obersoldaten unit throws out the window the timing, veterancy gain until the obersoldaten arrive, and all the others things that can do a ranger unit or usf faction as whole. Even if its not a ranger unit USF has the second best infantry in the mod, brits being the last but not for much and SOV dominating. (allied side)
While obersoldaten can stomp you hard late game with a single mg32 plus vet, you are already with 3 or 4 vet up riflemen and a ranger squad decent enough to deal with it. (Even against the vet obersoldaten they win if a single sprint play lands well)
You even have the 400 mp cost paras with double bar included, no ammo need it.

So, no, the m19 doesn't need a buff, it is just a tool ¿A quite expensive and not top choice for the allies tool? Yes but it delivers the pain as it should if you look at all others factors that USF has.

Originally posted by Tortuguita:

You trying to do 1 vs 1 scenarios against a obersoldaten unit throws out the window the timing

lets break down things into little , so we can understand each other point of view.

First of all, you could see first part is about M1919A6 Long Range performance vs any other MG in game, you could try it yourself copy same unit give it other MGs and try themout , you would see that M1919A6 is way worse than the Meta MGs, even in the hand of elites! unlike UK,OKW , which a MG in hand of elite works much well. as Bren/MG34. so no its not about comparing single unit vs single unit.

i choose the rangers because they are the best LR infantry USF has to offer, Vs best LR infantry OKW has to offer, not because am comparing unit saying Rangers need to be buff, you could see i even stated it that i compared them because they are the best LR.

Originally posted by Tortuguita:

and all the others things that can do a ranger unit or usf faction as whole.

just to let you know, Ober starts with 2 abilities, unlock 2 active and 2 passive as they level up and 2 are beyond upgrades/doctrines. so atlast we get 6 active abilities and 2 passive abilities.

Rangers starts with 4 Active abilities, and with vet do only get 1 passive abilties, so at last we stay with 4 Active and 1 Passive.

but what does the USF as a whole does to do with M1919A6 being a below average MG? when not para with 120MUN, Rangers with 270MUN cant win against a unit with 60MUN?\
but can do in vanilla game for some reason?

Originally posted by Tortuguita:

While obersoldaten can stomp you hard late game with a single mg32 plus vet, you are already with 3 or 4 vet up riflemen and a ranger squad decent enough to deal with it.

so the OKW does not have any unit to deploy until they get Ober? dont you yourself, go with volks MG34, SturmOffizer MG34? and then get Ober with 1-2xMG34? or even get 2xObers?
i have played against you multiple times.

3 or 4 vet up riflemen? doesnt each require 140MUN, and Rangers need 270MUN?
which map does support all this ammo until 1xOber arrives? not to mention Manpower drain of both riflemen & Rangers, which is higher than OKW units.

Originally posted by Tortuguita:

(Even against the vet obersoldaten they win if a single sprint play lands well)

what do you mean by that? if am going M1919A6 Rangers and Rifles, what does sprint does?

Originally posted by Tortuguita:

You even have the 400 mp cost paras with double bar included, no ammo need it.

what does it have to do with M1919A6? or even with the topic!

Originally posted by omar_uav:

So i went to test out in vanilla, things were different, Rangers with 3xM1919A6 had nearly 80% win rate vs Obersoldaten, at long range while in cover or without, although in vanilla veteran sergeant upgrade is not there, while also paratroopers with 2xM1919A6 did win vs Obersoldaten.

A small note, the weapons are identical to vanilla. However, the Obersoldaten are slightly buffed in the mod for reasons mentioned by Tortuguita such as timing and small squad size. It's best to compare these weapons by using the same squad two times. It is still possible that the cost don't reflect its performance, I am honestly not sure. Though balance is mostly focused on factions and not on individual units at this stage.

Originally posted by omar_uav:

i choose the rangers because they are the best LR infantry USF has to offer, Vs best LR infantry OKW has to offer, not because am comparing unit saying Rangers need to be buff, you could see i even stated it that i compared them because they are the best LR.

While Rangers have very good Marksmanship capabilities with their Garands - that is surprisingly not what they excel at. Rangers are, quite literally, just elite versions of Riflemen with a lower target size. Their ability set primarily benefits close-ranged engagements just like their standard Riflemen counterparts - they just do the job better.

While they can get elite versions of the M1919A6 like Paratroopers - generally speaking USF does not excel at long-distance engagements to begin with. The low damage of their rifles paired with the larger emphasis of Thompsons and volume of fire typically makes long-ranged combat their weakness so of course, when you have the dedicated long-ranged marksman squad, the Obersoldaten, who literally have the best rifle accuracy in the entire game (0.92 accuracy at close range to 0.8 at long range with 16 damage 5-shot kill rifles) - it's no competition.

There are many factors that one has to consider when making an engagement and it is inherently that not only is the Obersoldaten MG34 very scary in terms of stats, but the Obersoldaten's rifles themselves are monstrously lethal to begin with.

Obersoldaten are purpose-built for long-ranged combat whereas Rangers are designed as generalist infantry that covers a broad range of infantry roles whether assault, tank hunting, fire support or demolitions.

As Tortuguita mentioned before - it is a tool that excels at long-ranged combat. USF's advantage is that by doctrine, it can be unlocked as a rack for use, allowing it to get skip-teched.

Originally posted by omar_uav:

just to let you know, Ober starts with 2 abilities, unlock 2 active and 2 passive as they level up and 2 are beyond upgrades/doctrines. so atlast we get 6 active abilities and 2 passive abilities.

Rangers starts with 4 Active abilities, and with vet do only get 1 passive abilties, so at last we stay with 4 Active and 1 Passive.

but what does the USF as a whole does to do with M1919A6 being a below average MG? when not para with 120MUN, Rangers with 270MUN cant win against a unit with 60MUN?\
but can do in vanilla game for some reason?

You are making out one weakness of a highly versatile squad. Consider the timing and their ability kit featuring non-tech grenades, smoke, demolitions and sprint.

The timing for Rangers is absurdly quick if you opt to deploy them via T2 Captain tech which is very common given the necessity of the anti-tank gun and the greater strength of your core infantry army - putting it on par with literally all other 1 CP infantry reinforce types.

While yes, they get "less" abilities than Obersoldaten - that doesn't discount the efficacy and versatility of the Rangers. You also forget that with Bazookas, they can equip and un-equip them at will, allowing them to maintain their anti-infantry capabilities without sacrificing their ability to defeat tanks. If you paired 1 BAR with 2 Zooks - you would have a squad that can handle most threats without a real weakness - Fend off a pesky tank then un-equip Bazookas to have the full might of Garands and a BAR to finish off weakened opponents while throwing grenades.

You can sprint to close the distance and neutralize the enemy with a BAR
You can sprint to close the distance on an enemy vehicle and finish it off without a speed penalty that the Riflemen suffer with their sprint ability
You can sprint to disengage and soft-retreat somewhere out of reach of the enemy
You can sprint to avoid the line of fire from a heavy machine gun and then pop smoke to create a breakthrough.

Obersoldaten cannot do any of that. Their sprint only works outside of combat and can be prematurely ended by firing just one round towards them. Obersoldaten cannot fulfill any sort of anti-tank duties, being arguably an enormous waste of potential if given a Panzershreck or other anti-tank weapon - they can't even put it away to make good use of their superior Kar98 rifle.

The power of Rangers lies not in their specialization but their ability to fulfill multiple roles simultaneously with their unique line of abilities. It is not a fair comparison to say that just because one squad has more abilities than another that it would be "imbalanced" - you have to consider how those abilities affect the interactions and potential of the unit.

Originally posted by omar_uav:

what do you mean by that? if am going M1919A6 Rangers and Rifles, what does sprint does?

Allows you to relocate safely out of reach of impeding enemy assault units as they will not be able to catch-up to you. Paired with your low received accuracy and it would make a Ranger squad very difficult to catch by comparison.

Especially since they have smoke - they could easily throw a smoke grenade, and sprint out of danger whereas Obersoldaten cannot.

Thank you for the detailed information and specification about the genre, but i would like to state again, the real post is about M1919A6 being poor vs other MG counterparts even in the hands of the same units.

Originally posted by Lieutenant:

While they can get elite versions of the M1919A6 like Paratroopers - generally speaking USF does not excel at long-distance engagements to begin with. The low damage of their rifles paired with the larger emphasis of Thompsons and volume of fire typically makes long-ranged combat their weakness so of course, when you have the dedicated long-ranged marksman squad, the Obersoldaten, who literally have the best rifle accuracy in the entire game (0.92 accuracy at close range to 0.8 at long range with 16 damage 5-shot kill rifles) - it's no competition.

well its both yes and no, USF do excel at LR fighting, i know back about 3-4 years, "HelpingHans" did a video why M1919A6 is a bad choice anyway, when M1919A6 was nerfed to 1x per unit in vanilla. he is both right and wrong, many good LR unit do exist in USF, lets ignore the vanilla game as we in (170 Units) , first we got Pathfinders & IR Pathfinders, with hunker down, 2xscoped M1, and 1-2 weapon slot , give them M1919A6, i would say best early-medium game LR unit do exist, but very specialized role, that they do lack doing anything else.

other than their elite infantry packed with MGs.

the issue with Thompson, that its nerfed here in (170 units), its not worth that much as in vanilla game sadly, try to test out american assault engineers with 1xFlamer vs Rangers with Thompsons, as per my testing, Rangers won 95% of the time, but always with 1-2 models only, you are talking about a much inferior unit, with a cheaper weapon upgrade even.
are nearly taking down a higher unit per price and per upgrade and tier.

Originally posted by Lieutenant:

There are many factors that one has to consider when making an engagement and it is inherently that not only is the Obersoldaten MG34 very scary in terms of stats, but the Obersoldaten's rifles themselves are monstrously lethal to begin with.

Obersoldaten are purpose-built for long-ranged combat whereas Rangers are designed as generalist infantry that covers a broad range of infantry roles whether assault, tank hunting, fire support or demolitions.

As Tortuguita mentioned before - it is a tool that excels at long-ranged combat. USF's advantage is that by doctrine, it can be unlocked as a rack for use, allowing it to get skip-teched.

Totally agree with you, Obers are made for long range combat, but just to let you know, even a well timed rangers with Thompson attack is not very lethal as in vanilla, yes in vanilla rangers lacked sprinting , but their Thompson DPS and damage over range did cover up this spot . try to test out, spawn Rangers vet 3 with Thompson + VET SGT, directly on Ober vet 3 with 1xMG34, Rangers win with 1-3 models, but was always lower than 50% HP, although am talking about directly close range combat.

also does it sound reasonable to pay 270MUN on a single unit, to still lack vs a unit that only pays 60MUN? Yeah we would argue that Obers are much later infantry they need to be strong, i agree, but why when am risking 270MUN for a single unit, which means am either having higher percent of map control, or i am sacrificing all my ammo for a single unit, and yet the unit is not able to perform well vs a unit that only did pay 60MUN for upgrade, we all know that USF design is about using huge amount of ammo versus other faction, but not to the extend am using nearly 3.5x of MUN but still losing a fight.

Originally posted by Lieutenant:

You are making out one weakness of a highly versatile squad. Consider the timing and their ability kit featuring non-tech grenades, smoke, demolitions and sprint.

The timing for Rangers is absurdly quick if you opt to deploy them via T2 Captain tech which is very common given the necessity of the anti-tank gun and the greater strength of your core infantry army - putting it on par with literally all other 1 CP infantry reinforce types.

While yes, they get "less" abilities than Obersoldaten - that doesn't discount the efficacy and versatility of the Rangers. You also forget that with Bazookas, they can equip and un-equip them at will, allowing them to maintain their anti-infantry capabilities without sacrificing their ability to defeat tanks. If you paired 1 BAR with 2 Zooks - you would have a squad that can handle most threats without a real weakness - Fend off a pesky tank then un-equip Bazookas to have the full might of Garands and a BAR to finish off weakened opponents while throwing grenades.

its not a highly versatile unit, its more what you give , they do. and does it come for free? the cheapest thing you can do is Thompson + 1 Bzoka = 140 MUN, thats still cost more than fully upgrading OberSoldaten. not to say that only Thompson upgrade, makes them lose to specialized CQC units, as shock troops,commandos,even assault grenadiers with upgrades.

abilities its less , both Ober and Rangers dont require any upgrades for their grenades, yes for other abilties and can be skipped by doctrine, just as how M1919A6 could be skipped as you said earlier.

you also talked about "weapon ability" as of Bzoka can be hidden and unhidden, but they got just M1 Garands , not something of a great strength, also Ober do also get passive ability with STG 44, detection of stealth, thats a weapon ability.

Originally posted by Lieutenant:

You can sprint to close the distance and neutralize the enemy with a BAR
You can sprint to close the distance on an enemy vehicle and finish it off without a speed penalty that the Riflemen suffer with their sprint ability
You can sprint to disengage and soft-retreat somewhere out of reach of the enemy
You can sprint to avoid the line of fire from a heavy machine gun and then pop smoke to create a breakthrough.

yeah the sprint is good, but not that great or special ability, just a normal sprint for 5 seconds, unlike ober at vet 5 gets unlimited sprint while not in combat, and we all knows how easy to vet Ober to vet 5, that even the devs in vanilla game nerfed their suppression and made it active ability than passive because of how easy it is to level up Ober.

Originally posted by Lieutenant:

Obersoldaten cannot do any of that. Their sprint only works outside of combat and can be prematurely ended by firing just one round towards them. Obersoldaten cannot fulfill any sort of anti-tank duties, being arguably an enormous waste of potential if given a Panzershreck or other anti-tank weapon - they can't even put it away to make good use of their superior Kar98 rifle.

Ober can 1v1 MG while in green cover, at long range, dont even need to sprint.
if am going 3xM1919A6 , where is my AT capabilities ?
am paying 3.5xMUN for an inferior performance to Ober.

Originally posted by Lieutenant:

The power of Rangers lies not in their specialization but their ability to fulfill multiple roles simultaneously with their unique line of abilities. It is not a fair comparison to say that just because one squad has more abilities than another that it would be "imbalanced" - you have to consider how those abilities affect the interactions and potential of the unit.

well as i stated , i choose Rangers, because they have the highest LR DPS of all USF aresnal , not because am comparing those 2 units, i compared maximum M1919A6 achievable DPS vs maximum achievable MG34 DPS.

also unique line of abilities? whats unique about it? nade/smoke/sprint/3xC4?
nothing unique , paratroopers do have unique abilities with weapon upgrades ,Riflemen did have in the past "defensive stance" , those are unique ones, those in rangers are just same abilities in other units of USF faction.

nearly everyone uses Rangers to perform specific role and not multi role, either 3xBzoka, or Thompson+BAR is the common choices.

Originally posted by Lieutenant:

Allows you to relocate safely out of reach of impeding enemy assault units as they will not be able to catch-up to you. Paired with your low received accuracy and it would make a Ranger squad very difficult to catch by comparison.

if am running 3XM1919A6, which SMG unit do i need to run from OKW faction? if its STG unit and inrange, you cant just run out of cover, dont think sprint gives you any "received accuracy buff", just normal unit received accuracy

Originally posted by Lieutenant:

Especially since they have smoke - they could easily throw a smoke grenade, and sprint out of danger whereas Obersoldaten cannot.

Ober smoke, slows down enemy, which ensures enemy cant catch you, and a ober smoke + bundle nade = highly guaranteed wipe, i dont need to waste Sprint ability, while enemy is moving slowly and damaged, while walking out of smoke with low HP to get slaughtered.

should i say it stops vehicles from firing? isnt that even better multi purpose than just bland smoke, that players can use attack ground from behind it?

also here is a video of comparison of M1919 vs MG34

https://youtu.be/b8xfersFO-g

you can notice in all circumstances M1919 do lose vs MG34 , although MG34 & M1919 are priced the same.

Originally posted by Tortuguita:

Originally posted by omar_uav:

lets break down things into little , so we can understand each other point of view.

First of all, you could see first part is about M1919A6 Long Range performance vs any other MG in game, you could try it yourself copy same unit give it other MGs and try themout , you would see that M1919A6 is way worse than the Meta MGs, even in the hand of elites! unlike UK,OKW , which a MG in hand of elite works much well. as Bren/MG34. so no its not about comparing single unit vs single unit.

i choose the rangers because they are the best LR infantry USF has to offer, Vs best LR infantry OKW has to offer, not because am comparing unit saying Rangers need to be buff, you could see i even stated it that i compared them because they are the best LR.





just to let you know, Ober starts with 2 abilities, unlock 2 active and 2 passive as they level up and 2 are beyond upgrades/doctrines. so atlast we get 6 active abilities and 2 passive abilities.

Rangers starts with 4 Active abilities, and with vet do only get 1 passive abilties, so at last we stay with 4 Active and 1 Passive.

but what does the USF as a whole does to do with M1919A6 being a below average MG? when not para with 120MUN, Rangers with 270MUN cant win against a unit with 60MUN?\
but can do in vanilla game for some reason?



so the OKW does not have any unit to deploy until they get Ober? dont you yourself, go with volks MG34, SturmOffizer MG34? and then get Ober with 1-2xMG34? or even get 2xObers?
i have played against you multiple times.

3 or 4 vet up riflemen? doesnt each require 140MUN, and Rangers need 270MUN?
which map does support all this ammo until 1xOber arrives? not to mention Manpower drain of both riflemen & Rangers, which is higher than OKW units.



what do you mean by that? if am going M1919A6 Rangers and Rifles, what does sprint does?




what does it have to do with M1919A6? or even with the topic!

Once again, i'm gonna repeat myself, maybe you don't catch it the first time. You can't only account the power and price of a individual tool inside a faction and say that it needs a buff, that is just straight wrong.
Every piece of a faction matters and affects others to such a degree than just comparing prices and performance alone, with out, timers, abilities and armament options is a joke.
You can't simply ignore the entire changes that All units implements to a USF-OKW match and only focus in the performance of a single mg, nonsensical.

Lets go and play more 1 vs 1. I don't even remember you but at least by playing against you maybe i will able to see your theory.

Originally posted by Tortuguita:

Once again, i'm gonna repeat myself, maybe you don't catch it the first time. You can't only account the power and price of a individual tool inside a faction and say that it needs a buff, that is just straight wrong.
Every piece of a faction matters and affects others to such a degree than just comparing prices and performance alone, with out, timers, abilities and armament options is a joke.
You can't simply ignore the entire changes that All units implements to a USF-OKW match and only focus in the performance of a single mg, nonsensical.

well why paying 3.5x price of MG , cant reach the performance of a single MG?, ok i would accept if the unit required double MG to beat 210MUN upgraded unit, but for real? M1919 is 2nd worst DPS from all MGs, its only better than DP-28, and nearly win 60% vs Vickers K, while it pays 10 more than standard MG prices, and require special unlock.

Originally posted by Tortuguita:

Lets go and play more 1 vs 1. I don't even remember you but at least by playing against you maybe i will able to see your theory.

you hosted lot of (2) Lost Glider matches, and you played mostly as OKW, back when you spammed support crew FJR because they had FG42 and cheap to spam, then changed to MG34 tactics. Sometimes you joined 2v2s and 3v3s, as Wher or OKW, we played about 3 months ago in (8) Montargis Region, we played on opposite side of the hill.

you played as sturmpioneer MG34,Volks MG34,Sturmoffizer MG34, and sandbags everywhere.

Originally posted by omar_uav:

also here is a video of comparison of M1919 vs MG34

https://youtu.be/b8xfersFO-g

you can notice in all circumstances M1919 do lose vs MG34 , although MG34 & M1919 are priced the same.

Hi, I appreciate all these tests and I have been looking into the stats. As a result I see many inconsistencies between the different variants per weapon. (Some units can fire on the move, which actually has its own stats and can therefor vary a lot). I will test some adjustments.

The changes are published. I hope the difference is noticeable.

Originally posted by SneakEye:

The changes are published. I hope the difference is noticeable.

https://youtu.be/m696LHpPBBk

seems like the issue still persist

OKW Ober with MG34/M1919 got mixed rating that leans more to MG34 winning , depending on cover mostly.

but rangers with MG34/M1919 its always MG34 winning

Originally posted by omar_uav:

seems like the issue still persist

OKW Ober with MG34/M1919 got mixed rating that leans more to MG34 winning , depending on cover mostly.

but rangers with MG34/M1919 its always MG34 winning

Are you sure you have the latest version of the mod? The game is sometimes buggy with automatic updates.

I get different results. The performances are very close and the remaining squads barely survived.
https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2891900395
https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2891900441
https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2891900473

Originally posted by SneakEye:

Originally posted by omar_uav:

seems like the issue still persist

OKW Ober with MG34/M1919 got mixed rating that leans more to MG34 winning , depending on cover mostly.

but rangers with MG34/M1919 its always MG34 winning

Are you sure you have the latest version of the mod? The game is sometimes buggy with automatic updates.

I get different results. The performances are very close and the remaining squads barely survived.
https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2891900395
https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2891900441
https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2891900473

well unsubscribe ,resub and send new tests again!

Originally posted by omar_uav:

well unsubscribe ,resub and send new tests again!

Sadly that does not mean the game will redownload it, it is weird. Just in case, take a look ingame > modding hub > manage to the download date of the mod. If it is old, then cloik the refresh button on that page and wait until all mods are validated and updated.

Originally posted by omar_uav:

Originally posted by Tortuguita:

Once again, i'm gonna repeat myself, maybe you don't catch it the first time. You can't only account the power and price of a individual tool inside a faction and say that it needs a buff, that is just straight wrong.
Every piece of a faction matters and affects others to such a degree than just comparing prices and performance alone, with out, timers, abilities and armament options is a joke.
You can't simply ignore the entire changes that All units implements to a USF-OKW match and only focus in the performance of a single mg, nonsensical.

well why paying 3.5x price of MG , cant reach the performance of a single MG?, ok i would accept if the unit required double MG to beat 210MUN upgraded unit, but for real? M1919 is 2nd worst DPS from all MGs, its only better than DP-28, and nearly win 60% vs Vickers K, while it pays 10 more than standard MG prices, and require special unlock.

Originally posted by Tortuguita:

Lets go and play more 1 vs 1. I don't even remember you but at least by playing against you maybe i will able to see your theory.

you hosted lot of (2) Lost Glider matches, and you played mostly as OKW, back when you spammed support crew FJR because they had FG42 and cheap to spam, then changed to MG34 tactics. Sometimes you joined 2v2s and 3v3s, as Wher or OKW, we played about 3 months ago in (8) Montargis Region, we played on opposite side of the hill.

you played as sturmpioneer MG34,Volks MG34,Sturmoffizer MG34, and sandbags everywhere.

Once again, you are only comparing performance and not arrivals of any unit at all, or their differents abilities that can boost their performance in combat or any other thing, just this upgrade.

So the only 1 vs 1 you haved with my it was like... a lot patches ago, i can't remember when was the time when you could do that strategy lol