Total War: WARHAMMER

Total War: WARHAMMER

Radious Total War Mod
emcdunna 2 Jun, 2016 @ 11:23am
Magic (underpowered)
I think Radious has rebalanced many of the spells so that some are not OP and others are not useless, but all across the board, magic is still very weak.

I am currently using a mod which adds 50% more magic reserve, magic recharge rate, etc. It works pretty well, but there is yet more that should be going on with magic.

I was thinking we should discuss the pros and cons of magic in Radious mod, and basically aide in deciding what it SHOULD be.

For instance, as a tabletop player, I am well accustomed to seeing half a unit wiped out by a single (lucky) spell. This might upset some people of course, demanding that magic remains a somewhat fringe component of the battle, taking a backseat compared to shooting and melee.

Also remember that magic does not scale with unit size AT ALL. So it is hard to balance it for all unit scales, so lets just take ULTRA scale because thats what 50% or more of players use (and ultra scale has the most underpowered magic by comparison).

For me, this is how the magic lores SHOULD work.

1. Lore of vampires should primarily focus on buffing your men to perhaps 2x as good stats, resurrecting fallen soldiers all day long, and healing all the rest. Some damage is possible, but mostly a defensive, buffing lore which allows crummy skeletons + zombies to tarpit enemies for a long time.

2. Metal is supposed to be anti-armor. Searing doom is supposed to do MORE damage if the target has high armor compared to if the target has low armor. Yes you read that right. Other spells are pretty good as is, by raising ally's armor, reducing enemy armor, etc.

3. Heavens is pretty decent the way it is, except that comet of casandora is supposed to take a long time to arrive (random amount of time) but do MASSIVE damage. The point of this is to force an enemy to move away from a defensive position or suffer massive damage. Other spells are OK, perhaps a tiny bit weak.

4. Light is supposed to be a racist lore. It does more damage to Chaos and Undead than any other factions. This is mostly ignored in game, and I would like to see that flavor represented in a serious way.

5. Orc lores have the feel of the orcs, but perhaps do a little less damage then I think they should. Like foot of Gork often deleted an entire unit in one casting in tabletop.

6. Death magic is probably the best lore in vanilla game. So it doesnt need much here, except prehaps making purple sun A LOT better. Purple sun can kill half of your army in tabletop warhammer, instead of (at least in vanilla) just tickling a small group of guys.

7. Fire is another lore which is done well in warhammer, but again on Ultra I think the spells underperform. especially Fireball... in fact perhaps all of the "simple" magic missile spells should just become SUPER cheap, not changing damage at all. So maybe cut the cost down to like 3 magic, allowing you to cast it many times as you see ift.

So by all means I am not saying 1 wizard should kill your whole army in 10 seconds with a single spell, I am simply saying that having magic be so weak that not only should you never take more than 1 caster, but even 1 caster might be less effective than some other substitute unit (like one more cav unit)... is just not very warhammer-like. Taking 2 casters should be a decent idea, instead of a massive handicap.

anyway I know these concepts are not everybody's cup of tea, but maybe there needs to be a "Stronger magic for Radious" mod out there for people like me who want to have huge battles where magic accounts for a significant amount of the damage (like 20% casualties from magic, i think would be ideal)
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Showing 1-15 of 31 comments
Crypticnexus 2 Jun, 2016 @ 4:10pm 
I like the way you think. Magic in lore is so very important and is key to the tabletop game. Longer cast times could offset the spike in damage, meaning you need to have a unit or two bounce for your caster while he does his thing.
MLPMargeth 2 Jun, 2016 @ 5:11pm 
Currently I mainly like magic for the buffs certain lores can give, especially for big waagh and fire lore. The prolonged duration makes them quite useful in combat and the buffs can make a noticable difference, although it's hard to estimate the worth of the magician at the end of a battle this way.
Offensive spells are flashy and look nice, but I feel like I mainly use them as (slight) added damage to benefit a particular engagement or, most of the time, to use them as a form of crowd control.
Knocking enemies off their feet right before a cavalry charge is useful, one reason why I really like the item for lords and heroes that gives the breath attack - the actual damage of spells feels rather negligible, aside from some single target spells.
I'm not saying it needs a serious buff, but when I have to choose between having a lvl 30 mage or lvl 30 melee hero, the melee hero can usually perform a lot better and provide different (although somewhat weaker) buffs more reliably for the whole duration of the battle while racking up a lot of kills himself.
Last edited by MLPMargeth; 2 Jun, 2016 @ 5:12pm
emcdunna 2 Jun, 2016 @ 6:00pm 
And also since most magic vortexes often only do small amounts of HP damage, you cast some huge vortex spell with your wizard which kills nobody, just removes 10% of the health of lets say 100 enemies. So if they were all seriously wounded, you'd actually get kills with your wizard, but if they are at full health, it looks like you did absolutely nothing.

to contrast this, in TT warhammer, a vortex spell would instead kill outright 1/2 or 1/3 of the models hit. So no HP damage, just straight up casualties (which impacts leadership in TW far more than taking HP damage).

So i have never seen a vortex cause anybody to rout.

I will add in my voice, and say the OP is "Spot On". I played tabletop for a long time too, and his views are very close to my own on magic being rather lackluster and (at the current time) mostly pointless to utilize as it stands.
emcdunna 2 Jun, 2016 @ 9:16pm 
We need to decide a few things.

1) how many spells should you cast with your wizard in an average battle? Now currently I probably cast around 5 - 10 spells. Thats a pretty good number, but there is still a lot of spam during the heat of battle. Maybe with LONGER recharge times, but lower mana cost, you'd be foreced to not spam one spell over and over, but could use fewer more varied spells in battle.

2) Should there be any spell capable of wrecking over 50% of a single unit? Like lets say purple sun goes off perfectly. Is it that horrible if it can kill over half of a unit that it hits?

3) Should taking multiple casters do more to improve the mana pool? Currently, theres almost never a reason to take more than 1. If I take 2 wizards, how much should my magic recharge and magic pool be increased over taking just 1?

Add more as you see fit.

Basically anybody who plays tabletop feels extremely underwhelmed with magic. I feel like CA only tested this game on "normal" unit scale and felt magic was OK, but almost everybody plays on ULTRA. So... balancing magic for ULTRA makes more sense IMO.

I'm also in favor of giving Metal and Death magic to Empire battle wizards, in addition to giving them Battle wizard lords to lead armies with.
MLPMargeth 3 Jun, 2016 @ 3:54pm 
I worry that 50% damage to a unit from a single spell may be too powerful.
Let's stay with the Purple Sun as the example spell - at best I feel like I could use it around 3 times pretty realiably in most fights if I focus on it.
Going from that number, I could kill up to 1 1/2 units in every battle I send my wizard into without doing anything else.
For a lord I think that number is okay, a high level melee lord for me usually manages above a 100 kills easily, some of the stronger ones (let's say, chaos lord on chaos dragon) can easily manage 200-300 when put into tight infantry clusters.
For a hero I think that number could be a tad high, especially considering that the AI (atleast for me) tends to behave rather stupidly in battles and clumps it's infantry quite a lot, giving me good odds for atleast decent spell hits, admittedly with some risk to my own units.

I get that it's accurate from a tabletop perspective, but from a long term campaign standpoint I don't quite enjoy the idea.
emcdunna 3 Jun, 2016 @ 8:57pm 
I think that if these spells were very dangerous (maybe let's say killing 25% of each unit hit), it would be an effective counter to blobbing. It'd be sort of nice to have a good way to deal with blobs.

Also, it's not like the AI will never try to use these back at you. Maybe they will be able to use them effectively against you as well (to some extent).

I don't necessarily think fireball is too weak, but it's just expensive in magicc cost compared to almost any many other spells that do damage.

In general, if your wizard spends 100% of his time casting offensive damage dealing spells, then he should on average be able to do a decent amount of damage. Close to the amount that a melee character would do. Right? So getting 200 kills with a wizard who is only casting fireballs the whole game shouldn't be all that bad.

Right now I doubt I can get more that 60 kills with a high level wizard using every ounce of magic I can. So obviously that's kinda pathetic.

And also remember that since the magic pool is limited, you CANNOT spam 5+ wizards who are all casting damage spells at the same time and each earn 200+ kills. That couldn't happen, at all.

So allowing it to happen for a single character really isn't that crazy. What I think it'd do is force people to be smarter with tactics. If magic can be used to deny a flanking force from being effective (by killing it, debuffing it, etc.) then wizards can be more than just damage dealers. They can be effective tactical instruments. So you don't just rely on magic to kill stuff, you could rely on it to protect your flanks or ensure you'll get good charges, and other tactical stuff like that
Death Lore in the Empire? Sounds pretty dumb to me. As far as I know, it is also a death sentence for Licensed mages. Magic is already considered bad enough as is, and is illegal enough to be put to death, if you are caught practicing without a license. The only reason it is allowed, is that some believe you should fight fire, with fire, and some magics have no exception at all. I do enjoy buffing things for the sake of lore, but that is a terrible idea.

Magic is pretty powerful right now. Death can likely use some serious toning down, at least on normal.

If there are going to be magic mods, they would have to be made so you download the one for the unit size you'll be playing on. On normal, while you may not get to many kills with magic, if you save your magic for the most important units, you should easily clean up anything. Magic sniping is pretty powerful at the moment.

Vortex spells could probably use a little love. I think I cast one once maybe. Except for the fire vortex, which is more useful for the leadership damage it does, none of them are worth anything.

Buffs I feel are right where they should be. If you change anything, increase the duration. The buffs have turned the tide for some rather weak units, to kill some rather elite ones. Or simply make my zombies tanky as hell.

Breath... Worthless for damage. Great for crowd control. I generally use it to ruin charges, rather than before I charge in. Though I do generally charge in right after just to tie up units.


But, all balance aside, I think someone should make a lore friendly magic mod. While I wouldn't want to see it balance wise, I would love to see it how I think it should actually be. I'd definitely enjoy the campains a lot more.

But, yeah. As is, I've managed to get just short of five hundred kills with Suneater in a battle, and can just about solo armies with him. With Manfred on his mount, and a terrorghiest, I can literally solo entire armies by kite diving them. Only spells I cast were ones to snipe heroes. Otherwise, you literally don't need anything else. Especially with your healing spells for Manfred, and your Gheist heals over time. Really puts magic into perspective as being weak. (And yet the single target spells are SUPER over powered. Especially Accuse.)
emcdunna 4 Jun, 2016 @ 8:01am 
Fate of bjuna and spirit leach are powerful, maybe too powerful... I agree. Those two are the unbalanced one. In fact purple sun is really underwhelming at the moment.

Technically from a lore point of view and from the TT army books, empire should be able to use 8 lores, the main 8. Including death magic. I think it's not looked on with as much admiration, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

The one reason death magic isn't a favorite for the empire is because the army NEEDED buffing spells to win. Absolutely needed them. So lore of life, lore of light, etc. Were all preferable to death magic.

So make the empire more like that. Make the buff spells almost required, so taking death magic would be a handicap.

Anyway buff spells just need longer durations, I agree, and maybe the vortexes need to be viable.

Just doing some tiny amount of damage over a huge area isn't really worth anything. The vortexes need to actually kill some people!

Why should I cast purple sun on 10 blobbed units and get 0 kills when I can use fate of bjuna on one of those units and kill almost the entire unit?

It's much more valuable to kill off 1 unit fully than to kill 10% of the health from 10 units, IMO. Because that 1 unit you kill can be the only one you need to gain a tactical advantage.

Also, i'd like to see heavens magic be more tactical. Maybe if windblast had more range and was casted quicker, you could use it to seriously delay an enemy unit. Like imagine if you're being charged by 2 units, but you could cast windblast and delay one of them by long enough to defeat the other individual unit in melee.
[BRE] Faramond 4 Jun, 2016 @ 1:56pm 
Magic underpowered yes. Currently using a mod that improves the vampire lore drastically, so I can heal units almost to full strength. Which is fine, you still have a long cooldown and limited winds of magic.

And I saw some good points in this discussion, increased winds of magic when you have multiple spellcasters.
Last edited by [BRE] Faramond; 4 Jun, 2016 @ 1:58pm
emcdunna 4 Jun, 2016 @ 2:17pm 
Healing shouldn't cost any more magic than dealing that same amount of damage. Make sense? So if a fireball can kill 15 guys, and it has a 5 second cooldown and costs 5 magic, then it's only fair that a healing spell can resurrect 15 guys, has a 5 second cooldown, and costs 5 magic.

Lore of vamps needs to be seriously buffed over vanilla to be effective, completely agree.
Dave1029 6 Jun, 2016 @ 8:36pm 
I would like to see the high level damage dealing spells have the capability of annihilating an entire unit, such as the comet one, but it should be balanced to where you can only cast it once or twice a battle assuming it takes a reasonable amount of time.
emcdunna 6 Jun, 2016 @ 10:17pm 
can you even use that mod with Radious?
[Lod]Garalan 7 Jun, 2016 @ 11:28am 
yes it works with Radious and its very good
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