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XCOM 2 >  Workshop > Pavonis Interactive's Workshop > Long War Perk Pack > Discussions
Long War Perk Pack
Description Discussions71 Comments870 Change Notes
GhostMessiah 10 Jul, 2016 @ 11:46pm
Lack of non-Rifle classes
Hey guys! So after a quick Commander run with these new classes I have to say I'm loving the diversity in abilities and builds. That said there are 5 classes that use AR - Ranger, Assault, Shinobi, Specialist, & Grenadier with 1 Cannoner - Gunner, 1 Sniper - Sharpshooter. I think adding an 8th class with Cannon primary and Gremlin secondary would do a lot to further increase weapon diversity. It could be an anti-armor/MEC specialist, so it would end up with less hacking than a standard Specialist, but more abilities that either bypass armor or offer solutions to mechanized enemies (something like Haywire, but instead of a hack attempt it just straight up shuts down a mechanized enemy, no chance to control, no chance to fail.)
I'd also suggest finding another class for Grenade Launchers because right now Snipers, Cannons, Gremlins, and Grenade Launchers are all limited to a single class, whereas Swords have 2 classes, Pistols have 3.
Maybe switch up Ranger to use GL instead of a pistol, with the downside that he doesn't get many Launcher specific abilities (to differentiate him from the Grenadier)?

Just my thoughts that AR's are too omnipresent and special weapons are too few.

What are your guys thoughts about this?
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Showing 1-15 of 21 comments
!?! 11 Jul, 2016 @ 12:49am 
So you don't put shotguns on your assaults and smgs on your shinobis?
All just standard assault rifle because that is the standard option? Interesting strategy I guess.
#1
SievertChaser 11 Jul, 2016 @ 4:00am 
Originally posted by chris:
So you don't put shotguns on your assaults and smgs on your shinobis?
All just standard assault rifle because that is the standard option?
And then you complain that too many ARs are used.

I actually missed rifle-focused classes.
#2
PainFactory 11 Jul, 2016 @ 8:28am 
Sparks = Heavy Cannon (drone), mix of specialist and grenadier
And Yes, i agree with Chris... Shinobi=SMG and Assault=Shotgun
#3
Aaron 11 Jul, 2016 @ 9:37am 
I fail to see the problem. It makes sense most soldiers could use the most basic weapon in soldiers inventory - the assault rifle. The only ones who cannot are the ones very focused on alternative long guns - while a assault with AR makes sense, sniper or machine gunner doesn't.

It also provides options - while most of the time you won't equip your assaults and shinobis with ARs, I have done so when mission calls for it. Likewise, I have wielded gunners with shotguns. More options is a good thing, but ARs are hardly omnipresent - most of the time most of your troops are wielding something else.

It is also convinient - you can just give your troops next-tier ARs until you research the more advanced weapons.

I really don't see whats the problem here - if you want less ARs, just equip your troops with specialist weapons.
#4
GhostMessiah 11 Jul, 2016 @ 11:08am 
My point wasn't so much that everyone can use rifles, so much as only a single class can use specialist weapons.
If you want a cannon you must use a gunner, there are no alternatives.
If you want a sniper you must bring a sharpshooter, no exceptions.
If you want a Gremlin you need a specialist, no other options.
If you want a Grenade Launcher there is only the grenadier, nothing else.

If you want to use a shotgun or assault rifle (or smg) then you have: Assault, Ranger, Shinobi, Grenadier, Specialist.
My point was more that it would be cool if specialist weapons had choices as well. If there were two classes that could use a cannon or gremlin that would be fun. Or if you had someone else who could use a grenade launcher.
#5
SievertChaser 11 Jul, 2016 @ 11:12am 
Originally posted by GhostMessiah:
a single class can use specialist weapons
Hence they're called "specialist weapons".
#6
!?! 11 Jul, 2016 @ 11:15am 
Originally posted by GhostMessiah:
If there were two classes that could use a cannon or gremlin that would be fun. Or if you had someone else who could use a grenade launcher.
If rangers could carry grenade launchers, why would you ever bring a grenadier?
#7
VirgoCompany 11 Jul, 2016 @ 11:21am 
Originally posted by chris:
Originally posted by GhostMessiah:
If there were two classes that could use a cannon or gremlin that would be fun. Or if you had someone else who could use a grenade launcher.
If rangers could carry grenade launchers, why would you ever bring a grenadier?

You'd bring grenadiers for the abilities they bring, while a Ranger's grenade launcher is just a basic grenade launcher with no extra abilities. Maybe, the grenadier gets more grenades to use, while the ranger just gets the normal two grenades (one grenade slot and one equipment slot).

Not sure if I've spoken my idea clearly... Hopefully I did.
#8
GhostMessiah 11 Jul, 2016 @ 11:27am 
Originally posted by Militaristic September:
Originally posted by chris:
If rangers could carry grenade launchers, why would you ever bring a grenadier?

You'd bring grenadiers for the abilities they bring, while a Ranger's grenade launcher is just a basic grenade launcher with no extra abilities. Maybe, the grenadier gets more grenades to use, while the ranger just gets the normal two grenades (one grenade slot and one equipment slot).

Not sure if I've spoken my idea clearly... Hopefully I did.
My idea exactly. Grenadier is the expert with a Grenade Launcher, Ranger would be an expert with a rifle, who has a backup grenade launcher. The Ranger also wouldn't benefit from Light 'Em Up with the Grenade Launcher, they can't shred cover then take a shot. You could even make it so the launcher requires 2 AP.
Ditto for the Anti-Armor Specialist, he gets a cannon, but not as many cannon abilities as the Gunner, and a Gremlin, but not as many Gremlin abilities as the Specialist.

Lots of options are good (imo).
#9
SievertChaser 11 Jul, 2016 @ 11:29am 
Originally posted by Militaristic September:
Originally posted by chris:
If rangers could carry grenade launchers, why would you ever bring a grenadier?

You'd bring grenadiers for the abilities they bring, while a Ranger's grenade launcher is just a basic grenade launcher with no extra abilities. Maybe, the grenadier gets more grenades to use, while the ranger just gets the normal two grenades (one grenade slot and one equipment slot).

Not sure if I've spoken my idea clearly... Hopefully I did.
Yes, but doesn't training and skill with a certain specialized weapon (which weapons other than rifles, pistols, SMGs and, for some militaries, shotguns, all are) in itself constitute an ability?
#10
!?! 11 Jul, 2016 @ 11:34am 
Originally posted by Militaristic September:
You'd bring grenadiers for the abilities they bring, while a Ranger's grenade launcher is just a basic grenade launcher with no extra abilities. Maybe, the grenadier gets more grenades to use, while the ranger just gets the normal two grenades (one grenade slot and one equipment slot).

Not sure if I've spoken my idea clearly... Hopefully I did.
Rangers have a perk that gives them 2 charges of their equipped grenade.
Specialists can also get a perk that can give 2 grenades to someone.
What do grenadiers get, 1 more damage on grenades?
Free flashbang or smoke that specialists can get too?
1 grenade slot that becomes kind of irrelevant if you can just restock on grenades if you bring specialists who can also to a ton of other stuff?
Please.

Being able to launch grenades over long distances at large areas is the 1 thing they need to justify their existance.
Give that to someone else who is also much better at pretty much everything else making them the jack of all trades, master of all makes grenadiers irrelevant.

We can already kind of see that happening with assaults completely outclassing shinobis whose only saving grace is their inherent phantom.
If assaults could learn phantom, there would be no reason at all to pick a shinobi instead.
Last edited by !?!; 11 Jul, 2016 @ 11:38am
#11
GhostMessiah 11 Jul, 2016 @ 11:58am 
Originally posted by chris:
We can already kind of see that happening with assaults completely outclassing shinobis whose only saving grace is their inherent phantom.
If assaults could learn phantom, there would be no reason at all to pick a shinobi instead.
Well for that Shinobi's and Assaults are meant for two different uses. Assaults are the melee master, Shinobi are the stealth masters. They both just happen have swords. Shinobi can get more positional buffs and stealth buffs, while Assaults are more about survivability and pure damage with swords or shotguns. Shinobi gets Phantom and conceal, plus better detection radii. They aren't really infringing on each others territory except when you build a Shinobi to be a sword user first, which is misusing it.

A Grenadier gets bonus damage on grenades, extra grenades, bonus range to grenades, less AP to use grenades. He is meant to be throwing grenades all the time, it is what he excels at. Rangers excel at rifles, if they got a grenade launcher with no extra abilities to have additional grenades, no bonus damage, no bonus radii, then they would only use it when they really need it. Just having a grenade launcher doesn't replace a Grenadier, it just makes them slightly better than average at using grenades.
#12
!?! 11 Jul, 2016 @ 12:32pm 
The blast radius is not a "grenadier" thing, it's an inherent thing for grenade launchers.
This is not like giving the pistol to gunners where it remains pretty much useless without any perks to buff it, this is giving out 2 very class-defining perks that are not situational at all for free; large grenade range and blast radius.

The vanilla grenadier has already been split into "gunner" and "grenadier".
Homogenizing things even further with redundant, barely distinct classes is a bad idea.

Which is ironic since you literally complain how there are so many "assault rifle classes" in the first place.
#13
GhostMessiah 11 Jul, 2016 @ 1:06pm 
Originally posted by chris:
The blast radius is not a "grenadier" thing, it's an inherent thing for grenade launchers.
This is not like giving the pistol to gunners where it remains pretty much useless without any perks to buff it, this is giving out 2 very class-defining perks that are not situational at all for free; large grenade range and blast radius.

The vanilla grenadier has already been split into "gunner" and "grenadier".
Homogenizing things even further with redundant, barely distinct classes is a bad idea.

Which is ironic since you literally complain how there are so many "assault rifle classes" in the first place.
Volatile Mix gives bonus radii. The Grenade Launcher itself also gives some. You should checkout all the Grenadier grenade perks, they aren't just Grenade Launchers on legs, they bring a ton of their own buffs to the table.
There are plenty of ways to add GLs to Rangers without making them straight up better than Grenadiers.
Which is ironic since you literally complain how there are so many "assault rifle classes" in the first place.
I'm afraid I don't see the irony at all. Boosting Grenade Launchers from 1 class to 2 out of 7 is hardly homogenizing. It also isn't adding ARs anywhere they aren't already.
Last edited by GhostMessiah; 11 Jul, 2016 @ 1:06pm
#14
PROPHYZ 15 Jul, 2016 @ 12:27am 
Utility Slot Sidearms / Mod everything. Have you checked those mods Messiah and messed around with those ?= They will not mostly fix all your thoughts but mabey help out ,i use those and I am happy (no I don't use a Shotgun on a Gunner ,but I like to have ALL options I can get)

I guess you get the point,give it a try
#15
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