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RimWorld >  Workshop > 2ndNegative's Workshop > Craftable Synthetics > Discussions
Craftable Synthetics
Description Discussions1 Comments46 Change Notes
Thundercraft 2 Jan, 2017 @ 10:46am
Balancing: A non-Steel approach...
I did notice that the recipes you ended up using require far less resources than what Terry suggested. However, can we please have a version of this that does not require Steel or Plasteel?

Originally posted by Terry Yoon:
In my calculation this seems about right in balancing the market value. Also maybe cut the work needed and crafting skill requirement by about half?

Terry's calculations forgot to take something important into account. As I wrote earlier,
Originally posted by Thundercraft:
If work is required to make something (particularly a lot of work), then the end result should be worth more than the ingredients. Otherwise, there usually isn't much point.

Terry's Synthread

Synthread x75
- Devilstrand x25
- Cloth x50
- Steel x70

25 Devilstrand x 10 = 250
50 Cloth x 2.8 = 140
70 Steel x 2 = 140
Total = 530 / 75 Synthread = 7.07 each.
A16 cost of Synthread = 7 each.

Conclusion:
With that formula, there is no profit in manufacturing Synthread. Rather, it would be less work and more profit to ditch this and either stick with regular old cloth or just buy materials from traders.

Terry's Hyperweave

Hyperweave x75
- Synthread x75
- Plasteel x50

75 Synthread x 7 = 525
50 Plasteel x 14 = 700
Total = 1225 / 75 Hyperweave = 16.33 each.
A16 cost of Hyperweave = 16 each.

Conclusion:
With that formula, there is no profit in manufacturing Hyperweave. Rather, it would be less work and more profit to ditch this and either stick with regular old cloth or just buy materials from traders.

Personally, I find it a bit silly to use Steel in the manufacture of what is supposedly a far more luxurious and valuable type of fabric. Instead, how about something like this?:

My Synthread

Synthread x75
- Cloth x75
- Wool x55

75 Cloth x 2.8 = 210
55 Wool x 3 = 165
Total = 375 / 75 Synthread = 5 each.
A16 cost of Synthread = 7 each.

Conclusion:
This process creates additional value of 2 per unit. That's a small profit, but it can add up quickly.

My Hyperweave

Hyperweave x75
- Synthread x75
- Devilstrand x45

75 Synthread x 7 = 525
45 Devilstrand x 10 = 450
Total = 975 / 75 Hyperweave = 13 each.
A16 value of Hyperweave = 16 each.

Conclusion:
This process creates additional value of 3 per unit. That's a small profit, but it can add up quickly.

In addition to the above changes, for the sake of balance (since this process creates some profit), I would recommend changing the work needed close to the A15 values. That is, I'd make it <workAmount>2000</workAmount> for Synthread and <workAmount>3000</workAmount> for Hyperweave. Also, perhaps <minLevel> 8 Crafting for Synthread and <minLevel> 12 for Hyperweave?

My suggested recipes have additional benefits:
  • Synthread can be be manufactured without Devilstrand, which won't grow in Hydroponics, nor in certain climates. Also, it takes so long to grow and is so vulnerable to blight that most players won't grow it.
  • No reliance on Steel, which most colonies use quickly and are often in short supply of.
  • No reliance on Plasteel, which most colonies use quickly and are often starved for.

Although I haven't tested it yet, here's a Pastebin of what I'm going to try to use for Recipes_Synthetics.xml:
http://pastebin.com/ktrA5fZy
ResearchProjects_Synthetics.xml:
http://pastebin.com/psVVdYCw
Last edited by Thundercraft; 2 Jan, 2017 @ 12:33pm
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Showing 1-15 of 28 comments
2ndNegative  [developer] 2 Jan, 2017 @ 12:23pm 
While I realize that steel and plasteel are often in short supply, I feel like cloth and wool is not adequate for a high-tech material. And if you look at the point "market value" in my post you'll see that there is actually a dramatic increase in profit after crafting.
#1
Thundercraft 2 Jan, 2017 @ 12:43pm 
Cloth and Wool may not be high tech materials. Though, I could imagine some high-tech chemical or industrial process that would restructure the fibers to have different material properties.

Anyway, there really aren't many of other vanilla materials which would be more fitting for synthetic fabric. What would you suggest?

I'm kind of tempted to combine this with MJ - Make Plastic and Plasteel to make Synthread from corn-based plastic.

But Steel and Plasteel? Personally, I think Cloth, Wool, and Devilstrand is more appro. Besides, your recipes already require Cloth and Devilstrand. The only new ingredient I've added is Wool.
Last edited by Thundercraft; 2 Jan, 2017 @ 1:12pm
#2
тетеря, блин 2 Jan, 2017 @ 12:55pm 
My suggestion that makes sense in terms of real materials:

Synthread x75
- Cloth = Synthread = x75
- Wool = 1/2 Cloth = x38

Synthread: 66% cloth and 33% wool. Summary cost: is 4.3 per unit (profit = 2.7)

Hyperweave x75
- Synthread x75
- Devilstrand = 1/2 Synthread = x38

Hyperweave: 66% synthread and 33% devilstrand. Summary cost: is 12 per unit (profit = 4).

All-handmade hyperweave costs 9.3, almost twice less, and it seems to me pretty close to realworld market. Yes, you can make a lot of money, but hey, there're people working here and it's 2-step procees.
#3
Thundercraft 2 Jan, 2017 @ 1:13pm 
Originally posted by 2ndNegative:
...if you look at the point "market value" in my post you'll see that there is actually a dramatic increase in profit after crafting.
Yes, I did notice. It's quite a bit less materials than what Terry suggested. As such, I thought it should make for a big potential for making money. But I hadn't bothered to actually do the math. The results surprised me:

Synthread x75
-Devilstrand x25
-Cloth x50
-Steel x35

25 Devilstrand x 10 = 250
50 Cloth x 2.8 = 140
35 Steel x 2 = 70
Total = 460 / 75 Synthread = 6.13 each.
A16 cost of Synthread = 7 each.

Conclusion:
This process creates additional value of just 0.87 per unit, which hardly seems worth an extra manufacturing step.

Hyperweave x75
-Synthread x50
-Plasteel x35

50 Synthread x 7 = 350
35 Plasteel x 14 = 490
Total = 840 / 75 Hyperweave = 11.2 each.
A16 value of Hyperweave = 16 each.

Conclusion:
This process creates additional value of 4.8 per unit.

On Research Costs

I wanted to mention the research costs. 6000 research for Hyperweave and 3000 research for Synthread?

This seems incredibly high for something that does not have much potential for upsetting game balance or making the game easier. I do realize that there are a few Tier 4 research projects that cost similarly high. The ground-penetrating scanner costs 7000 and multibarrel weapons costs 3000. But those are clearly the exceptions. Most everything else costs around 1500, sometimes less.

We're talking about a better type of cloth for making apparel, here, to make a bit more money. It's not rocket science. In contrast, even the ship antimatter reactor costs only 4000 research. And ship cryptosleep caskets only cost 1200.
Last edited by Thundercraft; 2 Jan, 2017 @ 1:15pm
#4
Thundercraft 2 Jan, 2017 @ 1:20pm 
Originally posted by July@5am:
My suggestion that makes sense in terms of real materials:

Synthread x75
- Cloth = Synthread = x75
- Wool = 1/2 Cloth = x38

Synthread: 66% cloth and 33% wool. Summary cost: is 4.3 per unit (profit = 2.7)

Hyperweave x75
- Synthread x75
- Devilstrand = 1/2 Synthread = x38

Hyperweave: 66% synthread and 33% devilstrand. Summary cost: is 12 per unit (profit = 4).

All-handmade hyperweave costs 9.3, almost twice less, and it seems to me pretty close to realworld market. Yes, you can make a lot of money, but hey, there're people working here and it's 2-step procees.

Hmm... Those look like pretty reasonable numbers. I might try this. Though, I'd have to test them in-game to see how it feels.
Last edited by Thundercraft; 2 Jan, 2017 @ 1:37pm
#5
тетеря, блин 2 Jan, 2017 @ 1:40pm 
Thanks for your research corrections. Made them 900/1200 and changed to industrial.
Last edited by тетеря, блин; 2 Jan, 2017 @ 1:51pm
#6
тетеря, блин 2 Jan, 2017 @ 1:51pm 
I also suggest you to take a look at [T] ExpandedCloth (workshop id=726236520). I haven't played with it yet, but I know that it makes the game harder in terms of cloth-making.

As for me, now I've integrated them into each other – made a research connection between «Cotton Processing» and «Synthread Tech Crafting».

I don't think it will be easy money, because it is a 3-step process now.
#7
2ndNegative  [developer] 2 Jan, 2017 @ 3:12pm 
I brought the research cost down substantially and changed synthread crafting to industrial.
I won't take out the steel though, sorry. Using wool just feels incredibally flimsy to me.
If you link back to me you're very welcome to make a fork with wool instead of steel, though.
#8
тетеря, блин 2 Jan, 2017 @ 4:08pm 
Thundercraft, I wish you'll made a fork. Consider mentioning [T]'s mod for a full clothcrafting immersion.

2ndNegative, thanks for your mod and the idea.
#9
darktoes 2 Jan, 2017 @ 4:31pm 
This might be a stupid idea, but have you considered chemfuel? Currently it has no use for anything other than fueling drop pods.

If we assume that synthread is a synthetic fibre such as polyester or nylon that would mean that it's main constituent would be hydrocarbons, generally obtaied from oil. Chemfuel is the closest we can get to an oil or hydrocarbon aside from wood or plasteel which both have their own issues. Plus, it can be manufactured from food or wood making it renewable.

If you use chemfuel in the production of synthread then it ensures that it can't be made without a sufficiently advanced and wealthy colony but can be produced indefinitely once at that point. Hyperweave could then be made of devilstrand and synthread, making it a blend of high quality natural and synthetic fibres, giving it the advantages of both.
#10
Terry Yoon 2 Jan, 2017 @ 7:52pm 
When I posted my suggestion, I though it would make much more sense in realistic standpoint to include steel and plasteel in the recipe just like the original, because these fabrics are supposed to be 'synthetic' and I thought steel and plasteel is the ingredients already in the game that reflects the theme relatively well.

I also would like to mention the purpose of producing Hyperweave and Synthread. For me the sheer purpose was creating synthetic organs in EPOE, so I may not understand the problem of steel and plasteel being consumed quickly and is often short in supply since I start producing bionics and synthetic organs when I'm in equilibrium in terms of supply and demand. (You can probably guess, I like to play the game leisurely.)

What I'm saying is you can completely take my account out of the equation in discussing steel and plasteel cost, but I think it makes much more sense to at least include them in the recipe.
#11
тетеря, блин 5 Jan, 2017 @ 3:53am 
Originally posted by darktoes:
This might be a stupid idea, but have you considered chemfuel?

Can you provide your profitable formula like those above?
#12
darktoes 5 Jan, 2017 @ 5:37am 
Well, and mind I'm using the stats from the wiki which may or may not be correct, chemfuel has a value of 4. If you were to use say 50 chemfuel and 75 cloth to 75 synthread you'd get ~50% value added, which wouldn't be unreasonable I'd say. I wasn't planning on suggesting actual balancing though, my point was to suggest using chemfuel instead of steel or wool, which doesn't make any sense to me at all for making something that seems to be essentially nylon. In fact, making it entirely out of chemfuel with a 1:1 ratio would be the most realistic with similar value numbers.
#13
тетеря, блин 5 Jan, 2017 @ 8:00am 
— https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7717507/Craftable_Synthetics_no_steels.zip

With the permission of the author I've made a fork. All the changes are in its description. The materials' characteristics:

Synthread: 50% cloth, 25% wool, 25% chemfuel.
Hyperweave: 66% synthread and 33% devilstrand.

The profit remained ≈ the same:

Originally posted by July@5am:

Synthread: 66% cloth and 33% wool. Summary cost: is 4.3 per unit (profit = 2.7)

Hyperweave: 66% synthread and 33% devilstrand. Summary cost: is 12 per unit (profit = 4).
Last edited by тетеря, блин; 12 Jun, 2017 @ 8:58am
#14
Satsuki Shizuka 五月靜 14 Jan, 2017 @ 2:04am 
Originally posted by July@5am:
— https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7717507/Craftable_Synthetics_no_steels.zip

With the permission of the author I made a fork. All the changes are in its description. The materials' characteristics:

Synthread: 50% cloth, 25% wool, 25% chemfuel.
Hyperweave: 66% synthread and 33% devilstrand.

The profit remained ≈ the same:

Originally posted by July@5am:

Synthread: 66% cloth and 33% wool. Summary cost: is 4.3 per unit (profit = 2.7)

Hyperweave: 66% synthread and 33% devilstrand. Summary cost: is 12 per unit (profit = 4).
I love this choice - gives chemfuel a use for single bases!
However, the recipe is not working - for some reason, my peeps are not recognizing the source ingredients despite me having all of it! I have over 900 chemfuel, 400 cloth, and a good mix of alpaca and muffalo wool (200+ ea).
#15
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