The thing is that these game sellers are more than likely not buying the game copies/keys directly from steam store, but from sites like g2a, kinguin, etc., they can also buy game keys from those sites or they are buying games when there are sales on steam, they make profit ... y'know
There are like 3 ways:

1. Simply trading your items for the game gift game by sending the seller a trade offer, no need to trust him.

2.Trading your items or half of the full price to the seller beforehand and the seller will gift you the game after, some sellers are buying the game right after they get the items/ the deal, so they don't waste their money on copies of games that they won't be able to sell - this probably is the most common one because of the 30 days trade restriction for games, you have to trust the seller.

3. Trading game keys, this is simply not recommended. They offer to give you half their game key first. They suggest that you both send your key codes simultaneously by pm. They are either a scammer or not experienced, because both these ways of trading offer no protection. Half a game key is useless. Anyone can send a fake key.

Hope this helped! If you have any more questions, I would gladly answer them.

My problem is this kind of selling on tf2outpost ruins the ebb and flow of pricing on the market, and leaves me not wanting to trade any more. What can I do about this? I'm talking about me selling games, not just buying.

You bring up interesting points, indeed, but they aren't quite addressing all my concerns :/ But you bring up some points I had not considered.

The competition is not only for prices here. It's much more confortable for a user to directly send you a trade offer for the games that you are selling than having to trust other users and risk getting scammed . Regarding the prices, the value of them really does depend on who's buying. I don't have much experience in this field of trading, so I can't give an accurate estimate on what their values are, but you have the games in your inventory - you are providing the most convenable type of game trade for buyers, you shouldn't let your prices influenced by others' trades and simply wait for buyers.

Hmmm that is a very good point, thanks! I should take this into account when checking prices now :)

This has been a very good discussion, I'm pleasantly surprised :)

I'm still concerned, but you bring up a lot of good points that may help me.

The most important point is still missing, the point why there is this 30 day cooldown. This was done by Valve to prevent that what you are doing, by hoarding games during sales or buying in low-price regions to sell in full price regions.

This was done to stop ripping off the game developers profit by people like you. Only two parties shall make profit off the games, the developer and Valve.

Regarding what i see on outpost this was quite successful, most of the game trades offer crap that was on sale countless times or is region locked to countries you probably never heard of before. And all these trades gain next to zero traffic.

So selling games is imho like selling crates, just that the first one includes dealing with scammers. So go figure for yourself if this is worth wasting your time.

Trading isn't about a zero sum game. Profit is required for the ecosystem to exist. This is necessary.

Steam is not an ecosystem for consumers, it is an ecosystem for producers. The producers should be able to make a living off it. Consider trading between users like an extra feature to make the system more attractive for them (plus even more profit for valve because of fees).

The problem with the previous system was that the consumers abused it to make their own profit to make a living in such a massive amount that it hurt the producers, the main audience and income producing participants in the ecosystem. So to protect the system, because if the game developers jump the ship and move to origin, uplay, whatever there wont be any steam much longer, valve had to take actions.

But smart people already found a new way to abuse steam, just grab the unity engine, randomly assemble some demo assets and early access, here you come. Gives much more profit that shifting around games apparently :-P.

Gabe, in an interview (perhaps others too, but there is one I've watched), outlined that steam sales actually end up generating more revenue for developers/producers (not just units sold) by massive amounts, than without sales, and that massive discounts actually further perpetuate the massive increase in revenue. Trading of games on sites like tf2outpost does not prevent the developers or publishers from getting paid whatsoever, it actually helps drive further sales and revenue, perpetuating the positive cycle.

Whether you like it or not, STEAM trading is here to stay, and what I choose to do with my items is up to me, not you. If I want to perform trading from an economic perspective, that's not your business.

The whole point of tf2outpost is to connect traders, and the majority of that leads to people with profitable intent. If you don't like that, don't support tf2outpost.

Thats why Microsoft sold MS-DOS (or was it a Windows, cant remember) for $1 each in China, better get one dollar instead of zero dollar. But did they sell it for the same price in the whole world? No, but that was what was happening on steam, and thats something totally different than a time limited sale.

Im not supporting anything nor want anything changed, i just repeat the reasoning behind the current system.

Originally posted by Te3-BloodyIron@LANified!:

4 keys for games that are $43? How can we compete with this?

So stop crying, enjoy how outpost connects traders and be smart like Gabe and adjust your business plan.

I'm not going to stop expressing myself simply because you tell me to, fuck you.

Originally posted by Te3-BloodyIron@LANified!:

Okay, I'm getting super sick of all these game listings selling copies they _don't have_. Why this is allowed outside of sales is beyond me. People are spiking the market with prices. 4 keys for games that are $43? How can we compete with this? games don't go up in price any more, and I have no assurance they will even sell me copies any more since I send keys first. If I'm sending keys, and it costs the dude on the other end $43 to buy the game, it seems probable they won't sell me the game.

This is not working, and I'm not even sure if I'm properly explaining this.

Users who are selling games and don't have copies in their inventory should explicitly state whether or not they're buying the game directly from store or if they're located somewhere else (i.e. in a bot's inventory, dispenser.tf etc). Trading items that you don't have in your inventory is against the rules and is a reportable offense.

As for prices, simple supply & demand. If there are too many copies of a single game and there isn't much demand for it, you can't expect to sell it for much more than its sale price. In some cases certain regions get better deals than others meaning they can buy the game cheaper.

Keep in mind that game trading with new accounts is prohibited on the site so you should be careful who you give your keys to before buying a game.

Originally posted by ReTired ツ:

The most important point is still missing, the point why there is this 30 day cooldown. This was done by Valve to prevent that what you are doing, by hoarding games during sales or buying in low-price regions to sell in full price regions.

This was done to stop ripping off the game developers profit by people like you. Only two parties shall make profit off the games, the developer and Valve.

This is false. That restriction was put in place to prevent fraudulently purchased gifts to be freely moved around. It was a huge problem before, scammers would buy games using stolen/fake credit cards, charge back a week later meaning all those copies had to be revoked. In that short amount of time those copies could pass several hands and it was impossible to tell where they originated from. With the new system you can at least use common sense when trading for newly bought gifts.

Completely region locking games has more to do with what you're talking about.

1) Thank you for chiming in. A tf2outpost rep (such as yourself) is what I was hoping to attract to this discussion.

2) I'm talking about examples such as : ( http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/27240583 ). As you can see, their steam profile does not have the game (asscreed black flag) in their inventory, and the bot doesn't either (lists as untradeable). The trade listing says the game will be bought when keys sent, and then gifted to the client.

The problem I see with this mechanism is that these trades never end, and supply never shorts, and prices never rise. This isn't the case for all categories, but this is the observed result I have seen in many cases. Not only that, it's hard to believe they would sell at 4 keys when the game is full price now, not on sale.

As such, this results in no supply/demand fluctuation, and competition cannot happen.

But is this against the rules for tf2o? I am uncertain. Should rules change in response to this? I would like to think yes, but again I am uncertain.

I understand that prices are meant to fluctuate, and that is why I'm doing this in the first place. But the health of the market is stagnating due to this kind of behavior being tolerated, and I'm rather fed up.

What are your thoughts on this?

Originally posted by norby89:

Originally posted by Te3-BloodyIron@LANified!:

Okay, I'm getting super sick of all these game listings selling copies they _don't have_. Why this is allowed outside of sales is beyond me. People are spiking the market with prices. 4 keys for games that are $43? How can we compete with this? games don't go up in price any more, and I have no assurance they will even sell me copies any more since I send keys first. If I'm sending keys, and it costs the dude on the other end $43 to buy the game, it seems probable they won't sell me the game.

This is not working, and I'm not even sure if I'm properly explaining this.

Users who are selling games and don't have copies in their inventory should explicitly state whether or not they're buying the game directly from store or if they're located somewhere else (i.e. in a bot's inventory, dispenser.tf etc). Trading items that you don't have in your inventory is against the rules and is a reportable offense.

As for prices, simple supply & demand. If there are too many copies of a single game and there isn't much demand for it, you can't expect to sell it for much more than its sale price. In some cases certain regions get better deals than others meaning they can buy the game cheaper.

Keep in mind that game trading with new accounts is prohibited on the site so you should be careful who you give your keys to before buying a game.

Originally posted by ReTired ツ:

The most important point is still missing, the point why there is this 30 day cooldown. This was done by Valve to prevent that what you are doing, by hoarding games during sales or buying in low-price regions to sell in full price regions.

This was done to stop ripping off the game developers profit by people like you. Only two parties shall make profit off the games, the developer and Valve.

This is false. That restriction was put in place to prevent fraudulently purchased gifts to be freely moved around. It was a huge problem before, scammers would buy games using stolen/fake credit cards, charge back a week later meaning all those copies had to be revoked. In that short amount of time those copies could pass several hands and it was impossible to tell where they originated from. With the new system you can at least use common sense when trading for newly bought gifts.

Completely region locking games has more to do with what you're talking about.

Originally posted by Te3-BloodyIron@LANified!:

2) I'm talking about examples such as : ( http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/27240583 ). As you can see, their steam profile does not have the game (asscreed black flag) in their inventory, and the bot doesn't either (lists as untradeable). The trade listing says the game will be bought when keys sent, and then gifted to the client.

I checked his trade and he has 9 copies which he bought during a sale hence why they are untradable. I'm not sure I see the problem here.

I didn't see them in the inventory at the time. So at the time his account had no copies, but the bot presented it as if he would buy right when I (or whomever) paid. In that scenario, is it against the rules? (not in inventory, links to bot, will buy when I buy)

Originally posted by norby89:

Originally posted by Te3-BloodyIron@LANified!:

2) I'm talking about examples such as : ( http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/27240583 ). As you can see, their steam profile does not have the game (asscreed black flag) in their inventory, and the bot doesn't either (lists as untradeable). The trade listing says the game will be bought when keys sent, and then gifted to the client.

I checked his trade and he has 9 copies which he bought during a sale hence why they are untradable. I'm not sure I see the problem here.

Originally posted by Te3-BloodyIron LF roomie:

I didn't see them in the inventory at the time.

Originally posted by Te3-BloodyIron LF roomie:

As you can see, their steam profile does not have the game (asscreed black flag) in their inventory, and the bot doesn't either (lists as untradeable).

The copies are untradable which is why you need to send the keys to the bot first before you're gifted the game.

There's no rule breaking here, unless he or his bot had no copies in their inventory or if he was buying on demand and didn't mention that in the description.