Total War: THREE KINGDOMS

Total War: THREE KINGDOMS

Better Diplomacy
DonkeyWorld  [developer] 17 Sep, 2019 @ 4:58pm
Better Diplomacy Change Log
This thread is for discussing changes as well as providing documentation for what the mod changes. The top level post will always include all changes in the mod to date.

Table by table list of changes with reasons for each.

Release Version 3:


(cai_diplomacy_complex_treacheries_tables)

Increased the number of turns between breaking a treaty and declaring war without a treachery penalty (military access 5->10, coalition 5->15, alliance 5->20). Shouldn't affect you if kicked from alliance/coalition rather than left.

Reason: More long term gains for treaties means more consequences for breaking them

(cai_diplomacy_deal_evaluation_deal_component_tables)
Distance in a war is now a positive factor to call for peace, not a negative factor

Reason: Fighting distant wars with threats in your backyard makes little sense.


(cai_personality_diplomatic_attitude_components_tables)

Increased negative ramifications by ~0.3 for all personalities for hostile actions against friend.
Increased negative ramifications by ~0.1 for all personalities for friendly actions vs. enemy
Decrease positive ramifications by ~0.15 for all personalities for hostile actions against enemies.
Decrease positive ramifications by ~0.2 for all personalities (except default_late and resentful_late) for friendly actions vs. friends

Reasons:
Warmongering is viewed quite poorly. Makes war declaration even more meaningful. Also offsets some of the positive gains that declaring war would bring to enemy of enemies.
While wars and treaties relationship changes are working well vs. target faction, they were creating too many friendships in the game. This lessens that while still retaining its importance.

(cai_personality_diplomatic_component_values_tables)
Remove war malus
Non-aggression pact: will be worth +15 after 40 turns (was 10 after 20)
Military Access: will be worth +25 after 40 turns (was 15 after 20)
Trade Deals: will be worth +40 after 60 turns (was 10 after 20)
Alliance: will be worth +60 after 50 turns (was 40 after 20)
Coalition: worth +40 after 50 turns (was 20 after 20)
Vassal: +0 to start (was 10-60 depending on personality/vassal/master), +30 after 40 turns (was 20 after 20)

Reasons:
War Malus: Removed as it made no sense to lose reputation with someone for being declared war ON
Deals: Diplomacy a long-term game and these changes emphasize that. Trade deals are limited so they've got a diplomatic boost both to encourage researching more of them in the tree and because free trade is a historic sign of friendship.

(cai_personality_diplomatic_event_values_tables)

declaring war: significantly increased base value (-30 to -75), lengthened time to recover from 20/40 (default/resentful) to 30/60
trespassing: lowered time to recover from 20/40 (default/resentful) turns to 10/20
city besieged: recovery time reduced from 20/40 (default/resentful) to 10/20
conquered city: increased diplomatic penalty by 10
starting battle in foreign territory: decreased diplomatic penalty by 5
Marriage: increased effect from 40/60 to 50/75 (default/forgiving) and falloff time from 20/40 to 50 turns.
Non-aggression: lowered initial attitude boost from 20-25 to 5
military access: lowered initial attitude boost from 45-60 to 15
trade deals: Lowered initilal attitude boost from 15 to 5
coalition: Lowered intial boost from 40+ to 25
alliance: Lowered intial boost from 75+ to 40
divorce: Increased penalty to -75/-100 (default/forgiving) for 50 turns from -30/-45 from 20/40 turns. Needed stiff penalty to offset ditching a marriage since it was boosted.

Reasons:
Warmongering is bad. Intended so that it is much worse to declare war and take territories than it is to take them in defense.
Tresspassing lasted too long (5 years...what?) for such a minor offense.
City besieged - somewhat offsetting the war declaration, intended so that winning a defensive war isn't as harmful diplomatically
Marriage - Game of Thrones time! Marriage should be a bigger deal.
Deals: These gains should be bigger the longer they're around, not the shorter


(cai_value_sets_per_strategic_stance_tables)
Increased coercion difficulty as it was too frequently possible to coerce vassalize non-cunning leaders with equal strength (+15 to all values to reject coercions)


(cai_value_sets_per_value_type_tables)
Lowered main threat calculations for creating coalition non-late game to -1 (mainly token value so you know they view as main threat)
Paranoid rulers major threats coalition calculations reduced from -50 to -30
Honorable, trusting, deceitful gain +2 to +5 for creating coalitions
Increased unreasonable offer threshold by -10 for vassalation (meaning you'll require 10 more negative factor points before "unreasonable offer" penalty applies) -> possible to vassalize weak targets you're friendly with

Reasons:
Coalitions: Makes no sense not to want powerful allies...unless you're paranoid. Even if viewed as an enemy - keep them closer than your friends, etc.
Unreasonable Offer: Deals that should have been plausible were impossible. That's not entirely changed, but it is better now. Taking this another step (to -15 or -20) drops the unreasonable offer penalty from too many weak neutral targets so this where it stands.

(cai_value_sets_per_strategic_context_tables)
Increase speculative_strength_mods from 0.1 to 0.2

Vassals who sometimes really should declare independence don't. Should increase vassal independence actions, especially when supported by large power. This needs long-term testing to fine-tune. Am also considering removing diplomatic factors as a consideration for when to declare independence (since vassals of same master often end up buddy buddy it lessens chance greatly) - but not best change IMO.

(cai_variables_tables)
Changed AI to in general be more aggressive but more specifically against nearby rulers.
Views attacking as easier, defending as harder.
Major factions strength consideration raised.

At first glance changing AI behavior may seem out of scope, but these factor in threat calculation which affect how the AI acts diplomatically. AI should now choose better targets.

(campaign_diplomacy_treaty_component_required_treaties_tables)
Should fix vassal treachery.

Last edited by DonkeyWorld; 12 Oct, 2019 @ 2:13pm
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Showing 1-15 of 20 comments
EtchE 19 Sep, 2019 @ 8:55pm 
I don't think buffing marriage diplomacy benefit is a good idea. Since divorce can be done instantly and with only a minor cost, it's possible to arrange marriages and instantly divorce them for the positive diplomacy.
DonkeyWorld  [developer] 20 Sep, 2019 @ 8:24am 
Thanks for the feedback. Completely didn't think about divorce. For the next update I'm planning to penalize divorce greater than marriage's gains with the same falloff # of turns.
Clio 21 Sep, 2019 @ 2:43am 
Marrying and immidiately divorcing is a cheesy way of getting more unique/legendary generals like Sun Ce (+ Zhou Yu), Lu Bu and Ma Chao without having to cash out 1k +4k for a very rare female general.

I'm pretty sure almost no one uses this little cheese for boosting relations with other factions but I do think that it is a good idea to put a penalty on divorcing. Makes a lot of sense but please make it so that divorcing after x amount of turns will come with no or close to no penalties. Also divorcing someone from a faction you are at war with should also give a smaller relationship hit in my opinion.
DonkeyWorld  [developer] 21 Sep, 2019 @ 8:24am 
Why wouldn't a family in this era be angry at you for divorcing their son/daughter regardless of if it happened 1 year or 10 years after marriage?

Though to be honest I'm not sure whether I could do that or alter the penalty for divorcing someone at war with. Interesting idea though (with implications for other things too), so I will take a look at.
kunstreich 25 Sep, 2019 @ 4:20am 
I love that mod, much better flavor of the game with it! I would only add one thing: With historical context in mind, arranged marriages were totally a tool of politics, and as we know politics is just war with other means. That means divorcing should be severely punished because it both invalidates the political investment of giving a son/daughter away and it’s also a humilation to them and therefore the family name and faction reputation. It would probably also add a bit of flavor with already married unique characters. I don’t know it this is already in the game, but I would love to see changed attitudes by the spouses of your heroes. Thanks for your work!
DonkeyWorld  [developer] 25 Sep, 2019 @ 10:53am 
Vassal + Divorce Update!

Changed vassal to treaty to start at 0 (was 10-60 depending on vassal/master and personality), end at 30 after 30 turns (was 20 after 20). Situates long term vassal relationships somewhere between military access and coalitions.

Increased coercion difficulty as it was too frequently possible to coerce vassalize non-cunning leaders with equal strength (+15 to all values to reject coercion)

Increased unreasonable offer threshold by -10 for vassilization (meaning you'll require 10 more negative factor points before "unreasonable offer" penalty applies) -> more plausible to vassalize weak targets you're friendly with

Divorce values now -75/-100 (default/forgiving) for 50 turns from -30/-45 from 20/40 turns. Needed stiff penalty to offset abusing buffs to marriage.
DonkeyWorld  [developer] 25 Sep, 2019 @ 10:55am 
Originally posted by kunstreich:
I don’t know it this is already in the game, but I would love to see changed attitudes by the spouses of your heroes.

What do you mean? Spouses gain/lose relationship with spouse when married or divorced (pretty sure this is in the game)? Or other people changing their view from marriage actions depending on who they like/dislike (which is probably out of my realm)?
Scon 25 Sep, 2019 @ 1:37pm 
Is there any way to incorporate the old vassal treachery mod into this (now discontinued it looks like)? Essentially make it so that if someone declares war on your vassal it counts as a declaration of war on you, rather than the way it currently is which makes you the agressor for defending your vassals and also gives you treachery if you had a treaty. Thanks, DonkeyWorld for your hard work!
DonkeyWorld  [developer] 25 Sep, 2019 @ 1:57pm 
If I could I would. I don't know how the old mod worked, don't know where to find it (and don't know how to mod it myself).

I believe CA fixed this then broke it then fixed it again but not in all circumstances. Hopefully they just fully resolve it in their next update.

You're welcome!
Scon 26 Sep, 2019 @ 3:32am 
Found it http://catalogue.smods.ru/archives/37983 There's a download button on the bottom of the page Don't know if that helps.
DonkeyWorld  [developer] 26 Sep, 2019 @ 9:00am 
Oh, awesome! Thanks!

It's easy enough to add, but I would want to test it first (and that may take some time).
Scon 26 Sep, 2019 @ 1:56pm 
A little bit of playing with it on, I notice the big problem is when you make someone your vassal and then you go through those 'mediate peace' screens. If someone doesn't agree, then you break all your treaties and declare war - full treachery. I got -15 by vassalising the Han... I installed your No Treachery Mod right after that!
DonkeyWorld  [developer] 26 Sep, 2019 @ 5:46pm 
That one might be intentional. I could imagine it making sense to think vassalizing someone your buddy is at war is treacherous if said buddy isn't cool with it.
Scon 27 Sep, 2019 @ 3:18am 
Certainly that a good pragmatic/realistic point, but gameplay-wise you already receive a malus diplomatically from 'treaty with their enemies' and it sort of limits your war options to destroy or peace out without a surrender if you don't want a bunch of treachery.
DonkeyWorld  [developer] 27 Sep, 2019 @ 7:54am 
True. Yeah, I think the ideal solution is not something that would be easy to add through a mod - like a three way trade.
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