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Team Fortress 2 >  Workshop > Astute's Workshop > Skirmisher (Sentry Gun) > Discussions
Skirmisher (Sentry Gun)
Description Discussions4 Comments91 Change Notes
Astute  [developer] 28 Sep, 2021 @ 4:59pm
"Skirmisher" Stat Discussion
Welcome to the discussion page for the Engineer sentry gun-replacement, the "Skirmisher". Here I will go into greater detail about the stats I came up with for this weapon. Feel free to cheer/jeer this, or add your own ideas to the pile.



Skirmisher


Level 12 Sentry Gun

Fires high velocity explosive rounds
Upgrades increase range by 100%
-40% Turning Speed
2.5 second firing delay




The original idea for this building was to design around the weaknesses of the original Sentry Gun. I wanted to pick something that would be strong on its own, but not that much more effective when complimented with a Stock Sentry Gun.

Like most unlocks, the Engineer should trade his strengths towards certain classes for effectiveness against others.

The Skirmisher is basically an inversion, trading speed and sustained damage for longer range.



Fires high velocity explosive rounds

The Skirmisher trades bullets and rockets for explosive shells. These shells deal minimal splash(similar to the Liberty Launcher), and explode on contact with a target or surface. The sentry gun fires one shell every 2.5 seconds, dealing 60 damage on direct hit. At level 2, damage is increased to 80. At level 3, damage is increased to 100. Damage is subject to falloff outside of the range of the current upgrade.

One way to visualize it would be to imagine a direct hit soldier with much faster rocket travel speed and slower fire rate.



Upgrades increase range by 100%

With each upgrade, the Skirmisher gains 100% increased range. At level 1, the Skirmisher uses the Stock sentry gun range. At level 2, range becomes 200% of Stock. At level 3, range becomes 300% Stock.



-40% Turning Speed

As mentioned above, the drawback to the Skirmisher is its significantly slower turning speed when acquiring targets. This would make the Skirmisher significantly weaker to faster classes like Scout, Pyro, Soldier's rocket jump, and Demoman's sticky jump, and general flanking tactics. It would also be easier to stab and sap for Spy, as the Skirmisher cannot turn fast enough to respond. This would make the Skirmisher more effective with long hallways or tight cones, but not large open areas where targets could approach from many angles.

2.5 second firing delay

Unlike the stock Sentry Gun, the Skirmisher fires rounds on a 2.5 second delay between shots. This makes it less oppressive to fight at longer ranges.


Wrangler

The wrangler would function just the same, except the turning speed would remain in effect. You would still get the damage resistance and range, but not snappy aiming of the wrangler's targeting.


Notes

The primary use case for the Skirmisher would be supplemental fire when attacking, discouraging long range threats like Soldiers and Snipers, and controlling tight hallways.

Due to its slow fire rate and turning speed, it is rather helpless when engaged by more than one foe.

Given the range, it can also be thrown down and forgotten, allowing the Engineer to deal damage while also not needing to baby-sit his gear as much. In the same vein as the mini-sentry, it can function as a supplemental damage dealer.

Interestingly, it provides the Engineer with a siege breaker in the event of a choke point or tightly defended zones. Engineers should have the potential to break each others stalemates, something that is not generally possible by Engineers fighting Engineers.



... and hell, maybe we can sic it on the Sniper bots.



As a disclaimer, since these stats helped influence the design of this item. There is no demand, of Valve or the TF2 Team, that they be accepted or implemented. All time limits and percent values are adjustable. I'm also well aware stats on items do not get accepted, this is merely here for community discussion.
Last edited by Astute; 30 Dec, 2022 @ 3:54pm
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Showing 1-15 of 53 comments
Marvl101 28 Sep, 2021 @ 7:30pm 
I'd imagine that it'd have a lesser FOV, maybe it could lead its shots as compensation.


Ooh it could have a gunslinger effect so engies can sentry jump more with it
#1
SilentRedrum 28 Sep, 2021 @ 7:40pm 
it could also have more health i'm thinking 15 - 25% at most, and the laser thing on the top could fire every say 5ish seconds but for that long of a wait it does like 200 damage and the timer could reset if it doesn't target anybody for a 1 second so it couldn't instantly erase you and some splash damage on the explosion say 25 damage
#2
Jim Boatley 29 Sep, 2021 @ 5:36am 
The model is really cool, but idk If the stats compliment the name and look. It’s not as skinny as the stock sentry gun which could mean a health buff to this thing. The fire rate seems good, maybe lower it to 2 so it’s not as seemingly easy to dodge? I think the turning being lowered is a good idea, but 40% kinda seems like too much? I mean it would be up to see, if this thing was added if it needed to be quicker or slower. I like it though, we really need more sentry gun options other than a defined” Defense” and “Offense” option.
#3
Stock™ 29 Sep, 2021 @ 5:50am 
This gives me the feeling of being a long range sentry. Sooo....

+60% detection range
+15% damage
*Damage ramps up the further the enemy is from the sentry.
-20% firing speed (to compensate damage and make the wrangler not completely override)
-No rockets
-One gun barrel
-Can only turn 180°
#4
Mr. Light 29 Sep, 2021 @ 2:56pm 
think the shells it fires should be able to be reflected by pyros?
#5
Astute  [developer] 29 Sep, 2021 @ 3:19pm 
Yes, it should be airblast-able.


I did not mention it in the stats above, because I felt the situation would be rare and the application not particularly useful.

It would be similar in concept to reflecting the sentry rockets, the only difference being the projectile would be traveling so fast(think direct hit speed x2) that the timing window would be fairly tiny. It would likely come down to luck more than skill to return a shell.

Given the amount of damage you're blocking/dealing back versus the timing, it would not be cost-effective to attempt focusing a Skirmisher with the intent to return its shells.

The more likely scenario is you'll be trying to airblast something else, and a shell miraculously comes your way mid-blast and gets reflected elsewhere.
#6
Le0901 29 Sep, 2021 @ 10:05pm 
I want this thing to be like a bolter from Warhammer but with hitscan in exchange for potential damage output
#7
crushedbug 30 Sep, 2021 @ 7:57am 
idk man seems like it would be useful only on certain maps,like the last point on badwater, the wrench it uses should have some stats too
#8
Feya Schastlivaya 30 Sep, 2021 @ 9:47am 
Skirmisher:
(shared stats between levels)
+ range increased by 150%
+ fire guided shells [shell will go where the sentry aim]
• each shell will deal 100 dmg + splash
[minis deal only 65 dmg + splash]
- can have only 1 shell fired at a time
[fire shell, wait for impact, repeat]
- reduced turn rate by 25%

Mini:
shell speed: 1540 H.U. (same as Soldier's liberty launcher)

Level one:
Shell speed: 1100 H.U. (same as Soldier's rocket launcher)

Level two:
Shell speed: 2000 H.U. (same as Pyro's Flare gun)

Level three:
Shell speed: 3000 H.U. (same as..scout's baseball)
#9
Stogie 30 Sep, 2021 @ 10:37am 
Using the wrangler to sentry-jump with this feels like an excellent way to construct this on the high ground, where it obviously needs to be. Have you considered construction speed? If you want it to be able to function similarly to the Gunslinger, then Level 1 could be faster to construct, while each upgrade is progressively slower.
#10
Astute  [developer] 30 Sep, 2021 @ 2:13pm 
When I designed it, I figured it'd have a slower build speed, but I didn't have much reason as to why. Case and point, the build animations for the Skirmisher are 1.5 times as long as Stock, and they are just sped up to match in-game.

It's anyone's guess as to whether or not it should be a fast or slow build. I suppose it just comes down to how much of a threat it is once it's balanced for play. If it's very strong, then a long build time would be warranted. If it's weak, then a fast build time, etc.
#11
DarkStorm Omega 5 Oct, 2021 @ 3:40pm 
I like the idea of the Skirmisher having a slower build time, but I would like to propose one of two alternatives- One, give it a naturally slower build time, and hitting it with the wrench makes it equal to or *slightly* faster than the stock sentry's build time. Two, make it have the same speed as stock, but the wrench can't make it build any faster.

I'm aware that both of these propositions probably suck, but it's something I came up with.
#12
Ms. Dizazter 5 Oct, 2021 @ 3:47pm 
I'm wondering, how would it be equipped in Loadouts?

Would it have its own Wrench like the Gunslinger + Mini-Sentry or would it be a new PDA?
#13
Astute  [developer] 5 Oct, 2021 @ 5:22pm 
That's a fascinating question, one I wasn't able to formulate a simple answer for. When I was making this sentry, I didn't give it any thought because it was a separate problem to solve. Similarly, I didn't make a weapon or pda attached to it because I wasn't sure what the selection method would be. The only precedent we have is the gunslinger.


They probably had several reasons for tying the mini-sentry to the gunslinger at the time. It was most likely for ease of development. No new loadout slots, no new inventory item types, no tricky code to select stock over mini, no need to balance all the wrenches against the mini-sentry, etc.


However, if you dig deeper into the idea of a new building, the problem becomes quite a bit more complicated.

Say we add a third sentry:

We could use the PDA slot. However, what happens when we use a third sentry pda with a gunslinger? Do we get a mini or the third sentry? PDA also uses the pip-boy skin, which means you can't use pip-boy with third sentry, but you can with mini. You can also use any wrench with the third sentry because it is tied to pda, but not with the gunslinger. This whole situation is very confusing.

We could use a melee Now you have 1 wrench that gives mini, another that gives third, and the rest give stock. The mini-sentry was the exception before, but now we have multiple wrenches changing out our sentries. Again, it starts to get a bit confusing on a class that has to do a lot of thinking already.

We could add an additional slot for switching sentries. However, we have to make a stock sentry gun item and give it to all players. We also have to untie the mini from the gunslinger and make it its own item... which we then have give to all players who have gunslingers? Wait, do we give it to players who have gunslingers, or players who have the Engineer achievements for the gunslinger? How will f2p players get the mini if it has no achievements associated with it? Do they get it via random drop? Would have to go premium to gain access to a mini? Do we just bite the bullet and give everyone minis?

Semi-related, but what happens if we add a dispenser or teleporter? Are they tied to melee? to pda? to primary or secondaries? We'd have to commit to some kind of consistency in how the building replacement system works, or we might otherwise end up with Engineers sporting two dispensers and no sentry gun. If the third sentry gun is tied to a melee or pda, we now have two sentry guns tied to melees that we have to untangle instead of one.

Engineer buildings in general are very powerful and could change the game in a huge way However, if they are tied to a melee or pda, or even an item in general, you'll have to purchase them off the store or pray you get a drop to gain access to them. Are these items pay to win? Are some players locked out of a potentially powerful sidegrade without paying or praying? I'm not saying its bad or wrong, but it's something to think about.

So many questions...



Of course, this is probably way more than you wanted, but as I said, it's fascinating to think about. If they were to add a third sentry, I'd vote for a new set of slots and ditch the whole melee/pda stuff. Maybe three new slots to the left of the regular weapons. Pull the gunslinger band-aid and move on.


The short answer: I'd just make a new loadout slot for it.
#14
TopSuperDude 9 Oct, 2021 @ 6:51am 
Originally posted by Marvl101:
I'd imagine that it'd have a lesser FOV, maybe it could lead its shots as compensation.


Ooh it could have a gunslinger effect so engies can sentry jump more with it
What about 100%- damage from blast jumps with the sentry?
#15
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