Only gonna put some of the things I've been noting & thinking of here for now and I'll try to justify my thoughts best I can.

- Upgraded "Darkness" doing 4 damage instead of 2. As it is something like "Quantum Egg" is pretty much worthless on Veigar which is wild considering he generates so many attacks.
- "Release Darkness" would be way juicier if it gained Retain from upgrading instead of 2 damage. As it is, while hypothetically somewhat strong, it is extremely unreliable for a Rare 2-cost. There are instances where it is unplayable in a battle due to what else you draw with it and isn't even necessarily stronger even if it is playable (using 2 "Darkness" cards loses out on 4 damage compared to using "Release Darkness" while holding 2 "Darkness"). I think retain would make it a way better upgrade and make it function much better as a 'pop' mechanic for when you do get a potent "Darkness"-generating hand.
- I think "Release Darkness" would be better served if it exhausted "Darkness" cards instead of discarding them. When "Darkness" is discarded it junks up the deck pretty heavily depending on how many are tossed.
- Same goes for "Stilted Robemaker."
- Same goes for "Wizened Wizard" except I think it should let you draw a card for every energy you get from it too. As it is it's extremely underwhelming as something that generates energy and hand advantage plus there is typically nothing to actually dump that level of energy into. With draws paired with the energy generation it would be far more tantalizing to play around.
- I think Primordial Burst should give PEP on kill like "Baleful Strike" since otherwise its effectiveness is counter to Veigar's base mechanic. Especially for how expensive the card is and how reliant the card is on AP it feels counter-intuitive to have to pick between using the card in any decent capacity or building power.
- I believe Evil Rising should cost 1 less. It's very expensive for what it does and has massively diminishing returns. There are also multiple sources of innate cards that compete for 1st turn hand space and it being innate means there isn't a chance to set up Equalizer or any minion protections beforehand. That turns the innate into a blessing and a curse, and I think the reduction of cost by 1 can mitigate the massive turn 1 handicap due to using it.

I still have a number of thoughts so please let me know if you'd wanna hear them. I'll continue to play around with different things to see how they work and feel. Thanks again.

Thanks you for these amazing suggestions and explaining them! In the latest update I have made the changes you suggested. To be honest, I have been really busy lately, which is why I haven't had the time to playtest a full game after every update that has been released, so feedback like yours is really helpful to me.

Also, if you have more ideas for balancing, please share!

This isn't an idea for balancing so much as an idea for content and cards, but do you think it'd be a good idea to take some inspiration fro Veigar's appearance in Legends of Runeterra? In that game, he has a whole squad of villainous allies, and his upgraded hero form features a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ mechsuit. It's some of the most saturday-morning-cartoon-supervillain fun, and it's worth checking out.

Hey again, been messing more with the mod more and got a smaller amount of stuff to mention this time. I still wanna test out the feel of minions & darkness builds, but the darkness aspect definitely feels a lot nicer now and feel like that archetype feels much closer to minion stuff now. Wanted to mention 3 things for balancing ideas though:

- I think Caster and Melee Minion should have their base damages swapped. I feel like Melee Minions are already massively strong since they're effectively Metallicize but even better and don't require that base damage over Caster minions. If you aren't attacking at least twice in a turn Melee minions output as much or more damage than Caster minions anyway, and Caster minions don't have any added benefit. The added damage of using a Caster minion is also heavily reduced on specifically Veigar compared to other characters since he has no multi-hit attacks turning Caster minions into +1 per attack which doesn't cut it, especially as a character that farms permanent power. Swapping the base numbers would more concretely set them as the damage pick rather than just a minion you take when Melee isn't available.

- Way more minor but Eyeball Collection is exceedingly expensive for a 1 time 10 boost to PEP. I think it should either be waaaaaaay cheaper or be activatable more than once.

- Those special Veigar potions are really strong. I like them being really good, but being able to use them 3 times in one match is pretty insane I think. Using each potion once per battle I think would make a lot more sense, and encourage using them to keep yourself going rather than popping all 3 charges to auto-win a fight (like a boss fight).
Anecdote that just happened to me, had the potion that gives 3 regen and an energy, had sacred bark, fought the Heart with 18 regen and could've pushed for 36 but didn't need to. Made the heart a non-threat (started with like 11 HP).

Also wanted to know were you intending/interested in adding any other cards or are you planning on being more or less done with newer cards? Thanks again.

Originally posted by The Gun Wizard:

This isn't an idea for balancing so much as an idea for content and cards, but do you think it'd be a good idea to take some inspiration fro Veigar's appearance in Legends of Runeterra? In that game, he has a whole squad of villainous allies, and his upgraded hero form features a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ mechsuit. It's some of the most saturday-morning-cartoon-supervillain fun, and it's worth checking out.

Greetings, The Gun Wizard.
And first of all.
Thank you for your input.
But while I really appreciate and value your Idea. Would you be willing to elaborate on what you think this mod could take inspiration from? Seeing that, as far as I am aware we already have cards based on every one of his Legends of Runeterra allies and his

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ mechsuit

is already one of his most powerful rare cards in this mod.
And we even use his level 1 Art from Legends of Runeterra as his default pose art.
Seeing all that I am kinda lost on what you are suggesting.

@rdemanta thanks again for you suggestions! I have implemented the changes. As for Eyeball Collection, it hasn't been updated since the revamp. Before the revamp (when Phenomenal Evil Power gave 1 extra damage) it was quite strong. Eyeball Collection now gives 1 Phenomenal Evil Power. After killing 10 enemies the relic is completed and grants another 10 Phenomenal Evil Power, so basically 20 Phenomenal Evil in total. I've tested it and yeah, the using the potions multiple times in a row is really strong. This has also been changed to once per combat. I'm not sure if I'm going to add more cards. I'm quite happy with the amount this mod has and I'm pretty sure I have used most Veigar (related) art. However, I am open to card ideas, so if you have any ideas, please share (together with the link to the image for the card art)!

Hello. Veigar is a very fun character, though I feel like his early game is gimped hard if you're not picking the "3 enemies have 1 hp" relic. This is because of AP scaling.

I think it would be good to adjust the PEP scaling to become "gain 1 AP at 3 enemy defeat" in exchange for having higher initial floor for baleful strike, because starting at 1 damage is just a dead card in the initial floors until you gather 3 AP. (and thus the attack damage become 4).

I propose putting the initial damage of baleful strike to be 4, but change the AP formula of the earlier floor so as to not make the character more OP, because once the character gets going then he does keep going

The starting relics don't really work with Neow rewards - replacing the first one with a Boss relic makes the second one useless and disables the character's core mechanic. Would suggest to combine the two current relics into one (count PEP and calculate AP from that). Then rework the "freed up" starting relic to give a small boost - e.g. "at end of combat gain one PEP", which would also help with the slow start.

Luden's definitely needs a heftier upgrade. +1 damage is basically insignificant considering 90% of it's damage comes from AP anyway. At this point it's pretty much a worse Dark Matter, which is a weird thing to say about a rare compared to a common.

Originally posted by fifo:

Luden's definitely needs a heftier upgrade. +1 damage is basically insignificant considering 90% of it's damage comes from AP anyway. At this point it's pretty much a worse Dark Matter, which is a weird thing to say about a rare compared to a common.

You are correct, this was unintentional even. Seeing as apparently we had the old place holder upgrade still in place when we published this build. It was never intended for Luden's to have such a weak upgrade.
Thank you for noticing and notifying us about this.

Hey, it's been a hot minute since I've posted anything. It's nice to see little man still getting updated, too. I've been looking at the mod again and have been taking notes on things I've noticed and thought, and I have a video of a run I did to show some evidence of what I'm about to say if you'd want me to share. This one is pretty hefty. I think:

- Evil Crescendo should be a 2-cost. It gives 1 draw next turn unupgraded. Upgraded makes it give 2 energy instead of 1. The buff it gives is nice, but not nearly substantial enough for a full turn's worth of energy to be used on it, especially for Veigar.
- Red Brambleback is overpowered, a card that either is a really good heal or a full heal is really really strong. If you have a good block setup it's better than all other healing, I would remove the aspect of it keeping regen at the current level if not hit, might even change it to keeping regen at current level if damage is sustained, that would actually make it a harder heal to pull off. Would also probably tone down the regen to 3 or 4. Having 2 of them (or Mirroring them) is also silly at the moment since you actually gain regen each turn.
- Darkness being free giga-buffs all Darkness-spawning cards to an insane degree, and it makes Veigar extremely energy efficient. A good deal of the time I end up having more energy than I know what to do with while outputting a crazy amount of damage. Might recommend a Power card that has an effect like "after playing a Darkness your next Darkness costs 0" or something since as it stands there's no set up necessary for that level of power. With Boleham Towers for example, to compare it to the Silent's card Cloak and Dagger, it gives more block and more attacks than Cloak. Darkness is innately stronger (by a wide margin too) than Shivs are due to how Veigar farms power through a game. I feel like Darkness is more of a combo-type potentially crazy power source used in conjunction with other cards or setups, not really an out-the-gate blasting thing. Dark Splatter+ at 15 PEP is 37 damage for 1 energy, that's insane. Darkbulb Acolyte is a 22 damage 0 cost at 15 PEP, also insane. Makes Release Darkness worthless too.
- Transcendence is crazy overpowered too. It's at the power of a Boss relic (greater actually) with no downside. Maybe if the card draw it gave was every (4 - Act#) turns it'd be more in line with a reasonable relic, or if it just gave a growing damage increase/AP Scaling or something. As of now it's 1-3 Ring of the Serpents.
- Luden's Tempest is pretty weak for a Rare. Maybe if it was "Deal 6 damage. Deal 6 damage to all enemies. This card's damage ignores block." or something like that it'd be more worthwhile, but as it is I'd never take it over the better AoE Rare in Everfrost. Vulnerable is way more valuable than ignoring block in my eyes, especially at a cheaper energy cost and especially on Veigar who doesn't have other card sources for it. I think it would make it a good solo damage-dealing and AoE card that would function differently than most others that Veigar has, bar Void Staff kinda.
- Queen's Crown is pretty weak for the cost. 3 energy for effectively buffer is pretty lackluster and the additional draw is misplaced since it costs so much. I'd personally change it to remove the draw aspect entirely, and if a new buff is an option maybe have it give "whenever you are attacked apply 1/2 weakened to the attacker" to be a nice source of weak, a powerful perma-buff and more in line with what the item does in LoL & more in line with a 3-cost card.
- Not-So-Little Guy and THATASHORTJOKE should be Uncommons, neither are remotely on the same level as the other Rares. It would still leave 13 Rare cards too.
- Dark Matter should be 1-cost unupgraded and do 7 upgraded, as of now unupgraded it's akin to a pricier Baleful Strike that can't farm and the upgrade wouldn't be notable otherwise.
- Twisted Catalyzer should cost 0 assuming Darkness isn't a 0-cost. It sets up combos but does nothing on its own so it being 0 would let it more easily fit in builds.
- Void Staff+ should do 8 or 9, a +2 on an upgrade isn't worth it.
- This isn't really balance related, just think it'd be nice if CTRL+ALT+DEL gave a stack of PEP on kill.

* This would me more appropriate to put in the bug thread but I think it's way too minor to make a whole post there for it, Red Brambleback having a grammar error (should be "and you HAVE at least 1 regen"). Both the card and buff description.


Thanks again for working on the mod, and that video I mentioned mainly shows things related to Darkness and a bit of Transcendence/Red Brambleback (I killed the Transient with only an Everfrost and Boleham Towers/Darkbulb Acolytes).

Originally posted by rdemanta:

Hey, it's been a hot minute since I've posted anything. It's nice to see little man still getting updated, too. I've been looking at the mod again and have been taking notes on things I've noticed and thought, and I have a video of a run I did to show some evidence of what I'm about to say if you'd want me to share. This one is pretty hefty. I think:

- Evil Crescendo should be a 2-cost. It gives 1 draw next turn unupgraded. Upgraded makes it give 2 energy instead of 1. The buff it gives is nice, but not nearly substantial enough for a full turn's worth of energy to be used on it, especially for Veigar.
- Red Brambleback is overpowered, a card that either is a really good heal or a full heal is really really strong. If you have a good block setup it's better than all other healing, I would remove the aspect of it keeping regen at the current level if not hit, might even change it to keeping regen at current level if damage is sustained, that would actually make it a harder heal to pull off. Would also probably tone down the regen to 3 or 4. Having 2 of them (or Mirroring them) is also silly at the moment since you actually gain regen each turn.
- Darkness being free giga-buffs all Darkness-spawning cards to an insane degree, and it makes Veigar extremely energy efficient. A good deal of the time I end up having more energy than I know what to do with while outputting a crazy amount of damage. Might recommend a Power card that has an effect like "after playing a Darkness your next Darkness costs 0" or something since as it stands there's no set up necessary for that level of power. With Boleham Towers for example, to compare it to the Silent's card Cloak and Dagger, it gives more block and more attacks than Cloak. Darkness is innately stronger (by a wide margin too) than Shivs are due to how Veigar farms power through a game. I feel like Darkness is more of a combo-type potentially crazy power source used in conjunction with other cards or setups, not really an out-the-gate blasting thing. Dark Splatter+ at 15 PEP is 37 damage for 1 energy, that's insane. Darkbulb Acolyte is a 22 damage 0 cost at 15 PEP, also insane. Makes Release Darkness worthless too.
- Transcendence is crazy overpowered too. It's at the power of a Boss relic (greater actually) with no downside. Maybe if the card draw it gave was every (4 - Act#) turns it'd be more in line with a reasonable relic, or if it just gave a growing damage increase/AP Scaling or something. As of now it's 1-3 Ring of the Serpents.
- Luden's Tempest is pretty weak for a Rare. Maybe if it was "Deal 6 damage. Deal 6 damage to all enemies. This card's damage ignores block." or something like that it'd be more worthwhile, but as it is I'd never take it over the better AoE Rare in Everfrost. Vulnerable is way more valuable than ignoring block in my eyes, especially at a cheaper energy cost and especially on Veigar who doesn't have other card sources for it. I think it would make it a good solo damage-dealing and AoE card that would function differently than most others that Veigar has, bar Void Staff kinda.
- Queen's Crown is pretty weak for the cost. 3 energy for effectively buffer is pretty lackluster and the additional draw is misplaced since it costs so much. I'd personally change it to remove the draw aspect entirely, and if a new buff is an option maybe have it give "whenever you are attacked apply 1/2 weakened to the attacker" to be a nice source of weak, a powerful perma-buff and more in line with what the item does in LoL & more in line with a 3-cost card.
- Not-So-Little Guy and THATASHORTJOKE should be Uncommons, neither are remotely on the same level as the other Rares. It would still leave 13 Rare cards too.
- Dark Matter should be 1-cost unupgraded and do 7 upgraded, as of now unupgraded it's akin to a pricier Baleful Strike that can't farm and the upgrade wouldn't be notable otherwise.
- Twisted Catalyzer should cost 0 assuming Darkness isn't a 0-cost. It sets up combos but does nothing on its own so it being 0 would let it more easily fit in builds.
- Void Staff+ should do 8 or 9, a +2 on an upgrade isn't worth it.
- This isn't really balance related, just think it'd be nice if CTRL+ALT+DEL gave a stack of PEP on kill.

* This would me more appropriate to put in the bug thread but I think it's way too minor to make a whole post there for it, Red Brambleback having a grammar error (should be "and you HAVE at least 1 regen"). Both the card and buff description.


Thanks again for working on the mod, and that video I mentioned mainly shows things related to Darkness and a bit of Transcendence/Red Brambleback (I killed the Transient with only an Everfrost and Boleham Towers/Darkbulb Acolytes).

Greetings Rdemanta,
First of all, it's great to hear from you again!
And when it comes to the balance changes we agree and have implented a lot of the changes you suggested.
We even just straight up added your Crown idea because I though it was really well done!
Our next update will be out soon to adress most of these and also add some other changes we thought of.

I would also really like to see the video but sadly I was not able to find it.
Could you sent a link?

Thanks again for your continued help and support of this mod! It really helps us!

Originally posted by Juki11:

Greetings Rdemanta,
First of all, it's great to hear from you again!
And when it comes to the balance changes we agree and have implented a lot of the changes you suggested.
We even just straight up added your Crown idea because I though it was really well done!
Our next update will be out soon to adress most of these and also add some other changes we thought of.

I would also really like to see the video but sadly I was not able to find it.
Could you sent a link?

Thanks again for your continued help and support of this mod! It really helps us!

Hey there, I'm glad you liked the ideas.
This was the video I was talking about, I didn't put it in the last message cause I wasn't sure you wanted a video put here. I might edit it out of my reply later. It has some other mods that appear but they take a backseat to what the build was. I had 4 cards added to my deck that weren't Boleham Towers and Darkbulb Acolytes, I wanted to see if I could win with just those two and it went way better than expected. Would recommend double speed, the video is like 47 minutes.

Originally posted by rdemanta:

Originally posted by Juki11:

Greetings Rdemanta,
First of all, it's great to hear from you again!
And when it comes to the balance changes we agree and have implented a lot of the changes you suggested.
We even just straight up added your Crown idea because I though it was really well done!
Our next update will be out soon to adress most of these and also add some other changes we thought of.

I would also really like to see the video but sadly I was not able to find it.
Could you sent a link?

Thanks again for your continued help and support of this mod! It really helps us!

Hey there, I'm glad you liked the ideas.
This was the video I was talking about, I didn't put it in the last message cause I wasn't sure you wanted a video put here. I might edit it out of my reply later. It has some other mods that appear but they take a backseat to what the build was. I had 4 cards added to my deck that weren't Boleham Towers and Darkbulb Acolytes, I wanted to see if I could win with just those two and it went way better than expected. Would recommend double speed, the video is like 47 minutes.

I fully watched it on normal speed and highly enjoyed watching you play Darkness optimally. I do also however 100% agree that Darkness was wayyy overtuned last update.
We have giving Darkness a massive nerf and I hope this will bring it more in line with what we hoped it's powerlevel should be. While still keeping enjoyable to play. And having the same vibe as Shiv has for the Haunted.