Sid Meier's Civilization V

Sid Meier's Civilization V

Hyperdimension Neptunia: Planeptune [BNW]
Caboozles 13 Oct, 2015 @ 4:11pm
Neptune's General Balance
On the matter of Neptune's gameplay, I think the puppet idea is good, it just has some mild (possible) issues in early-game strength and general compensation. For one thing, the 1% gain 2% drain outright is very painful. Even something like 2%-2% would be fine without giving her too much power as you more or less can only focus on one city at a time.

It's not the units that get me, it's the fact you are more or less unable to build early-game wonders and are struggling to get the buildings you need. This is accentuated more or less with the CBP, which during the small tests I did, Planeptune early on ended up building nothing but warriors for the first part of the game. It hurts. Even without CBP, often cities would just flat out convert production into shares or gold instead of building anything new.
I would have less issue with the puppet status if the puppet were able to keep what you were constructing while under Histy's rule, although I see how easy that would be to game by just only using her for one turn to direct the way you want.
On the plus side of this, once you've annexed a city and have Histy in control of it, production is not a problem.

Also, I should definitely mention. The mod does not scale well for timers. On standard and Marathon+, histy drains the same, regens the same, and you go through the same things for each. This is a double-edged sword as histy regens a lot faster all things considered, but also her energy is significantly less valuable as a wonder can easily be 45 turns even with her 100% bonus.

Neptune's bonuses don't all that valuable for how much of a hassle she can be. I like the uniqueness of it, and it fits her to be too lazy to be productive, but it nonetheless can be terribly unfun at times with very little reward for doing well. By finishing several quests, the only advantage you now have is an extra resource to trade, and then you're on equal footing with other civs aside from a Histy.Purple Heart's 1% per 3% feels like it'd only be effective in late game, which I'm okay with, but also I feel just makes her straight up pointless to change to if you're less than maybe 30% shares. This also creates a terrible sense of scale in a 12p game where having a 30% requires you to have a BIG edge, or often in Nep's case, multiple cities dedicated to production-to-shares, which stifles your momentum big-time.

Overall, what you have with Neptune is interesting, but it doesn't seem like it has any real payoff. It has difficulties getting off the ground, and deals with a unique mechanic that can be utterly frustrating if you end up in a bad spot (Such as not spawning near any cattle or sheep, or requiring a great general to succeed a quest, which in some cases straight up demands you declare war on someone. That's not what Nep would do, yo!).


Overall, after a few games:
Good Idea, well put together, she's not weak, but there's little motivation to play her unless you want to clip your own wings.
This giant wall of text is much less criticism as it may seem, as it is more just pointing out things I've noticed. As with anything of the sort, you can choose to listen or change anything or not, but I'd like to see her be a bit more rewarding for her playstyle's inherent difficulties.




If anyone else wants to mention anything about Neptune's gameplay, I think this would probably be an easier place to do so than cluttering the comments, as well as easier for Vice to keep track of.
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Showing 1-11 of 11 comments
SINstriker_ 13 Oct, 2015 @ 6:28pm 
Something to add: After i assigned histoire to build a wonder which would take 10 turns, she ran out of energy and the city would build something else entirely insted of spending 1 or 2 turns to finish it. This could lead the player to saving up energy and planning which wonder he could complete in time(which i do appreciate), but it also feels like a kick in the nuts.

Overall i agree with this wall text.
Vie S  [developer] 14 Oct, 2015 @ 9:17am 
Thank you for taking the time to write this out. Detailed feedback that isn't just "I don't like my capital being a puppet" is quite valuable and hard to come by.

So I am looking into the following possible buffs to Neptune. Not all of them will be implemented; that would make her too strong after the initial learning curve. So if you were to choose only three from the following list, which would you choose?

1. Energy gain per turn 2%, consumption per turn 3% (50% more uptime overall); starting energy increased to compensate
2. Enable setting focus of Puppet states (i.e. Default focus, Food focus, etc.), but I don't know if this is actually technically feasible without Community Patch
3. Pudding Parlor built in the Capital from the beginning, and Pudding Parlor automatically negates puppet penalties in the Capital regardles of population
4. Start with a Scout
5. Start with a Worker
7. Side Quests grant 0.5% Shares per turn permanently rather than grant a lump bonus
8. Side Quest lump bonus increased to 7.5% or even 10%
9. Purple Heart's UA 1% Yields per 2% Shares (this seems dangerous)
10. Purple Heart's UA also doubles Histoire's Energy recovery
Caboozles 14 Oct, 2015 @ 10:33am 
I think Neptune's issue isn't numbers or anything, but just general quality of life. If she were a BIT easier to play, it'd be a lot more managable.

I'll go through the list.

1) This would be pretty good. Just overall more favorable uptime, especially for more cities. Would also definitely help if the starting energy was higher for the early game.
2) Possibly. Not my first choice as I don't think the focus is what gimps her.
3) This would be very nice, and a good benefit. Not overbearing either.
4) Eh
5) Eh
6) What happened to 6!?
7) I think maybe, but I feel this could also become somewhat overbearing and all too dominant. It would give her a LOT of power, though.
Also a downside of this would be with two quests you could be Purple Heart permanently.
8) I don't think the numbers are the problem
9) I think defintiely not. Again, the numbers are not her issue. I think Purple Heart needs something more than just raw numbers to make her more favorable, which leads me to...
10) This would be a nice quality of life improvement, and incentive to transform. Given Histy is 'on vacation' here, it'd be nice.

Overall, my picks?
1, 3, and 10.
I think 1 and 10 synchronize really well. Giving Histy more growth than expense is a really nice quality of life improvement, and I don't think it overpowers her, and 3 just helps the early game slightly by giving you a few turns of reprieve.
7 is also a good consideration if it ends up being fairly balanced (disable this share growth during Purple Heart's transformation and this would be easily top 3)

Some other considerations is reduce the difficulty of only the first quest, if possible. Maybe even make a unique, static quest for Planeptune to get you off the ground.

And thanks for listening.
Vie S  [developer] 14 Oct, 2015 @ 11:42pm 
I've implemented #1, #3, and #10, and one I thought of to make Side Quests a juicier bonus which I didn't previously list. Patch is up and the change notes are in the change notes tab. Please let me know how she feels now.

#6 was missing from the list since I merged it into #3.
Caboozles 15 Oct, 2015 @ 7:45am 
I'll give her a play and let you know.
Caboozles 15 Oct, 2015 @ 10:17am 
Aside from the bug I mentioned in the comments, she seems to play a lot better. It feels a lot more fun now. It's too early to say she's good or fine, but those changes went a long way.

One thing about her that I've picked up on that's actually really huge, is share production can supplement Histy, meaning early on you rely on her, but as the game progresses you can easily swap back and forth between Histy and Purple Heart to regen histy, giving you almost full control of your city(ies) until you've finished a quest.

It's actually rather subtle, but kind of genius.
chnsquad 17 Oct, 2015 @ 9:07am 
Love your mods. So interesting, but got some problems.
when I play Lowee civilization -- the UU doesn't have any special ability (except recover when a writer is expensed). And it seems to be the problem of all the Hyperdimension Neptunia mods that the UU don't have any special abilities, since I didn't find any Units.xml in these mods. Can you fix them? Thank you!
Caboozles 3 Nov, 2015 @ 10:02pm 
So far everything feels REALLY good with her compared to before. The only thing I can really think is one of the issues I mentioned might come up if you just give her a ton of share growth, in which she just gets too many shares. Her natural share growth combined with bascilicoms and mild amounts of happiness just let you completely dominate the share-board. This isn't an issue for the yield increase, since it's not that noticeable, but it does however mean you pretty much don't need Histy after a certain stage early-game. It's disgustingly strong, and probably the only thing I think truly needs toning down. After three or so completed quests I was only losing about .30% shares a turn while in HDD. .

The Pudding Parlor start is a real nice quality of life thing, and I saw you weren't fond of it, but I don't think it's that dangerous a gift early on. If anything, I would just tone down how fast she can gain shares.

I think the Eggplant harvest thing could possibly see a little toning down. The 'small' chance for a barbarian to spawn is disgustingly large, and I'd rather see that become less of a hassle. At the same time, it can be completely removed if you just sit a unit on top of the farm, which is a pain but not that expensive. So this creates a bit of an impasse where it's either an INCREDIBLY random pain, or just not even a thing. Maybe just increase the % of initial barbarian spawns, and negate the chance per turn (and of course tone down the benefit)?

I'm not sure if it was an error on my end, but the +1 yield for every pudding parlor was only granted once. Is this intentional, or an error? Because I sure hope it was intentional. I realized VERY quickly how dangerous that could be.
Vie S  [developer] 4 Nov, 2015 @ 1:39pm 
Yeah, I figured I was giving her a little too much at once, but since I was getting a lot of complaints about her not being fun to play that I figured I'd overcompensate a bit and see where that went. The main thing I'm going to to do is reduce the shares gained from her UA, right now they're a bit on the high side. If it feels necessary, I will actually increase the difficulty of the quests a bit, because I want them to be difficult to complete yet with a great reward -- in fact, Pudding Parlor yield bonuses should stack and I think it's only an issue with the tooltip not reporting it. On that note, I'm happy with the Stop Eggplant Growing Act (aren't I clever with names?). It's a high reward with a severe drawback, though even that part isn't a drawback if you opened up Honor.

I'm thinking of giving AIs a flat bonus to Share gain based on the game difficulty (this is a Core Files change, but it applies here since Share gain is a bit of a problem). They generally already get one by virtue of them having such a tiny amount of Unhappiness, but it does seem like their ability to be competitive in that department is hit-or-miss.
Caboozles 4 Nov, 2015 @ 2:29pm 
I can appreciate the 'overbuffing' part, at the very least. It certainly makes playing her easy.

My thoughts
- Reduce shares from UA
Probably a good solution to start with. I'll talk about what I mean 'start' farther down
-Increase the difficulty of quests
Yes and no. I say you should rather tweak some quests. Getting a quest like "3 national wonders" is incredibly easy to complete and gives you a huge advantage. Getting one such as "Complete a university" is downright impossible until you make it that far, and given that I play on Marathon+++ speed, that can be something like 2-3 hours into a game. Definitely a product of my own fault, but still something I feel should be kept in mind.
Instead of increasing the difficulty across the board, you can try and scale all the different quests up to the more mid-game oriented or difficult to reach quests. The quests are indeed quite rewarding, all things considered, so I would not feel too upset if it was way harder to accomplish this until more mid or late game.
-Stop Eggplant Act
Completely fair, then. It caught me off guard with how much they spawned though, so at least a small warning might help. I can avoid it in the future, but if someone isn't ready for it, that can really screw them over. I had around 13 barbarians spawn in less than 10 turns across maybe 10 farms empire-wide. Maybe I got ♥♥♥♥♥♥ by the RNG-god, but I was NOT expecting that rate.
-Flat bonus to share gain
Possibly. Sometimes empires will have share gain that outright demolishes you for reasons that I usually can't tell. A few weeks ago when I initially tried Neptune out, someone (who I hadn't met) had around 4% share growth. Maybe it was an anomaly, but I'm loathe to adding more variation to an already uncertain mechanic.

I do appreciate the incremental nature of your updates, and the consideration you take before making changes. I think you should definitely be careful, as Neptune's strange nature makes her mechanics incredibly volatile. My only concern is that you might take the Riot approach to game design and change too much at once (and in the process completely ♥♥♥♥ everything up), but at least from what I've seen from you, you're far too centered to do that.

Thanks again for your reply.
Caboozles 4 Nov, 2015 @ 2:30pm 
I also see you fixed the community patch, so I'll play more vanilla for a bit and tell you how I feel about her before jumping into the CBP and testing the water with her balance in that.
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