Age of Wonders III

Age of Wonders III

Corrupt the Source - Extensions
driveby 8 Aug, 2016 @ 6:50pm
Good for feature expansion. Bad for balance.
I overlooked the discussion tab and will remove all but the original comment & place them here in post. The comments section probably is not the place to drive a point
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In response to: “And it's (the rate of mapgen corrupt sites) supposed to be significant - otherwise what's the point ?”:
The point is allowing counterplay to the Necromancer's unique ability to "salt the earth" through corruption of income sites, & to a lesser extent create a unique beneficial alternative to the Well of Souls.

Otherwise the main mod benefit is allowing a broader range of valid targets for Corrupt the Source as a number of sites were left out making the thematic spreading-death theme of the necromancer feel a bit thin.

Changing between 25% & 30% of income sites to be useless for the breathing-class majority is a major balance shift and a disproportionate one at that due to uneven distribution. While the cleanse source might not necessarily make a large impact on gameplay without a larger number of already-corrupt sites; corrupting a significant portion of sites on mapgen represents a balance shift in favor of necromancers and a general obstacle non-necromancers. In the last two campaigns running the mod I’ve encountered corrupt great farms within the first 3 cities acquired and have not uncovered cleanse the source for the majority of the campaign; 50+ turns. Researching all the avatar spells to maximize the chance of uncovering cleanse just isn’t strategically worth it. The net effect of default corrupt sites is less population growth for non-necromancers.

Even if my experience is a statistical anomaly and uncovering cleanse is as common and quick as implied; losing out on 100+ population growth per turn in the early game represents a significant decrease in trajectory of non-necromancers. The mod’s choice of default corrupt sites begs the question: Why is the shift away from default exploitable sites necessary?

If the concern is cleanse lacking applicability without common obstacles for use; looking at cleansed versions of Hall of the Forefathers & Castle of the Lichking would add desired pointedness to the cleanse addition and be more in line with a late research acquisition.

P.S: My removed Comments for posterity.

Jul 29 @ 4:56pm
The mod adds needed functionality to the corrupt/cleanse metagame that can be very onesided but the increased amount of corrupt site generation that occurs with default map generation seems pretty excessive.

Jul 30 @ 11:14am
I can't speak to the ratio without uncovering an entire map. I have, however, seen occasion where both nearest independent cities have corrupt greatfarms and such useless substitutions to the 6/7 breathing classes when cleanse is typically uncovered so late is a rather significant change to the vanilla mapgen settings for income structures. I'm not really sure why such a balance shift is good or needed.

The whole climate metagame & similar corrupt/cleanse should be available on a more general basis, at least in a less efficient means than specialized magic; due to the potential extremes that could arise from certain picks that might not allow one player any recourse against certain actions. This mod adds that needed functionality but by altering the existing mapgen balance of income sites it makes a significant alteration and I'm not sure why that should be.
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Gloweye  [developer] 9 Aug, 2016 @ 12:31am 
Originally posted by drivebymessiah:
In response to: “And it's (the rate of mapgen corrupt sites) supposed to be significant - otherwise what's the point ?”:
The point is allowing counterplay to the Necromancer's unique ability to "salt the earth" through corruption of income sites, & to a lesser extent create a unique beneficial alternative to the Well of Souls.

Consider the earth slightly salted to begin with. Perhaps there've been necromancers before in the area, and they should leave a larger mark than most other classes.

Originally posted by drivebymessiah:
Otherwise the main mod benefit is allowing a broader range of valid targets for Corrupt the Source as a number of sites were left out making the thematic spreading-death theme of the necromancer feel a bit thin.

Changing between 25% & 30% of income sites to be useless for the breathing-class majority is a major balance shift and a disproportionate one at that due to uneven distribution. While the cleanse source might not necessarily make a large impact on gameplay without a larger number of already-corrupt sites; corrupting a significant portion of sites on mapgen represents a balance shift in favor of necromancers and a general obstacle non-necromancers. In the last two campaigns running the mod I’ve encountered corrupt great farms within the first 3 cities acquired and have not uncovered cleanse the source for the majority of the campaign; 50+ turns. Researching all the avatar spells to maximize the chance of uncovering cleanse just isn’t strategically worth it. The net effect of default corrupt sites is less population growth for non-necromancers.

Call it a design decision. Here, let me take the exact numbers:

Well of Life and Well of souls have exactly equal chance of spawning. Every pass having the Well of Souls also has the Well of Life, and they're weighted equal.

Following 3 passes are conducted on player starting cities:
Shared - Treasure Site (Player - Village Range)
Weight group 18
Great Farm - 0.25
Corrupted Farm - 0.07

(around 30% chance)

Shared - Treasure Site (Player - Town Range)
Great Farm - 0.25
Corrupted Farm - 0.08

Shared - Treasure Site (Player - City Range)
Somehow, city range doesn't spawn Great Farms. This might be a cause of you seeing less great farms.
Corrupted Farm - 0.08

Following 3 passes are on independent cities:
Shared - Treasure Site (Village Range)
Great Farm - 0.25
Corrupted Farm - 0.08

Shared - Treasure Site (Town Range)
Great Farm - 0.5
Corrupted Farm - 0.2
Spring of Life - 0.5
Corrupted Spring - 0.2

Shared - Treasure Site (City Range)
Spring of Life - 1
Corrupted Spring - 0.4

Following passes are on expansion sites (basically, potential city locations)
Shared - Treasure Site (Mini Exp. Player City)
Great Farm - 1
Corrupted Farm - 0.02

Shared - Treasure Site (Mini Exp Global)
Great Farm - 0.15
Corrupted Farm - 0.05
Spring of Life - 0.15
Corrupted Spring - 0.05

Following Pass does all Inns:
Shared - Inn
Inn - 0.9
Haunted Inn - 0.1

(Note, If you have the Decodence patch, the Haunted Inn chance is a little bit higher than this, since I made a group pass to include it, so it's weighted against the circus as well.)

Avatar spell details:

Forbidden Skills: Necromancer Skill
Knowledge: 180
Random Reward Pick: True (So it can be gotten from Lost Libraries)
Can be starting skill: True
Tier: 3

So yeah, if it doesn't get available, bad luck. Try reshuffling your spell book ? I've had often enough that Training Regimen required extensive mining before it got available, and that's a tier 1. See http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Research for details on how the Random Number Generator can screw you over.

Originally posted by drivebymessiah:

Even if my experience is a statistical anomaly and uncovering cleanse is as common and quick as implied; losing out on 100+ population growth per turn in the early game represents a significant decrease in trajectory of non-necromancers. The mod’s choice of default corrupt sites begs the question: Why is the shift away from default exploitable sites necessary?

If the concern is cleanse lacking applicability without common obstacles for use; looking at cleansed versions of Hall of the Forefathers & Castle of the Lichking would add desired pointedness to the cleanse addition and be more in line with a late research acquisition.

Hall of the Forefathers adds 15 Knowledge, 150 Dead Population and 150 Happiness. It's already suitable both for clean and undead cities, tho arguably stronger for the Necro's. Therefore, there's no alternative. Almost the same for the Castle - it still gives 10 Mana, 10 Knowledge and 20 Production even for living players, which is quite a lot. Also, the MCU is very strong, therefore we didn't want to cleanse it.

For neccesity, call it a design decision. You can change it for your own mod, if you want to.

Originally posted by drivebymessiah:

The whole climate metagame & similar corrupt/cleanse should be available on a more general basis, at least in a less efficient means than specialized magic; due to the potential extremes that could arise from certain picks that might not allow one player any recourse against certain actions. This mod adds that needed functionality but by altering the existing mapgen balance of income sites it makes a significant alteration and I'm not sure why that should be.

Again, design decision.

If you want to change it, create a new mod, make sure you tag Corrupt the Source as dependency, and go into the editor. You can view and change the above values - they're in AoW_LevelGenerator.rpk, under Settings -> Generation - Shared(Structure). Look for the pass names noted above.

I'm not gonna change them in the base mod.
Last edited by Gloweye; 9 Aug, 2016 @ 12:31am
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