Please update this for the Gathering Storm!

Nice going! Best of luck with your new game, and be sure to let us know when you release it! ;)

Just out of curiosity, Olleus. What kind of game is it and do you have any sort of site with more information about it? :)

Sorry for not replying before. Firstly anyone who wants to use this (or another one) of my mods may do so without asking me first. I would appreciate a message telling me that you are doing so, for my own curiosity.

I wanted to explain why I've been away. I've been playing other games and just been busy with life. Mostly I feel like Civ6 just doesn't cut it for me, there are too many small things about the game that irritate me, and the big things aren't enough to my taste to draw me in. But I'm glad that this small mod has helped other people enjoy the game more.

Lastly one of the reasons I've been very busy is because I've been working on my own brand new game. It started with some modding ideas I wanted to test out in a standalone sandpit, and is now a semi-complete set of game rules with a rudimentary UI. It's only a hobbyist project and sometimes there are months between me having the time to work on it, but it's always in the back of my mind

An update for GS would be nice. Thanks in advance.

Props for trying, but this mod makes it feel much more like a grind and the balance is just a little bit off. I like how everything has it's own role but now the other units are almost useless when they shouldn't be. Good effort though, this is an area Civ still needs work on.

In real life submarines can attack land targets. See Syria for modern references.

The fusilier really needs to be removed, surely this wouldn't be too difficult. If there's a file I can delete myself please let me know.

Will this work with R.E.D. or MOAR or will it break that?

Hey can it be that Greeces Hoplite is just as good or better than a regular swordsmen?

Love this mod! Would it be possible to make great generals/admirals stack again?

Is it me or does the AI not make calvary units?

I play this mod with R&F. All in all it works, but now in my opinion some units are op: Hwach'a (Korea); Keshig (Mongols) ;Impi (Zulu). And since they added Pike&Shot Fusiliers aren't needed for balancing anti cavallary units anymore. I realy enjoy this mod (and 8 Ages of Pace), the game feels much more balanced. Thank you for your work.

@olleus, both mods are working with R&F, but they are not functioning correctly, something is off and I cannot put my finger on what it is exactly..

Hey also can make barbarian anti calvary just as strong as melee units? I'm asking this because the camps become too easy to kill.

I don't have R&F and haven't tried the latest patch yet. Can I have feedback on:

1) Does it work on the latest patch? There would be some weirdness like multiple cards that speed up anti-cav production, but that's not critical
2) Does it work with R&F? I suspect the Pike&Shot unit might break the Fusilier
3) Is it balanced with R&F? Specially worried about the new UUs (ie, Impi might be OP)

Raider units are now hunters, they have a completely different purpose: killing things at sea. Specially sinking embarked units and packing a hard punch (if somewhat weak defence) against enemy naval units.

Hey I think raider units kinda loose their identity with this mod, so heres 2 ways I think you should improve them. Raiders should obey zone of control and they should be able to raid.

I guess my suggestion came in part from a "realism" point of view, without much consideration for balance. Seeing infantry, tanks, etc. unprotected and getting low damage on them with artillery strikes feels a bit out of place.

I see your point with airstrikes, the added source of firepower makes stonewalling the advance of armies with a few well placed units more difficult, so in a way planes already cover the changes warfare underwent around that era.

And yes, field cannon/machine gun would be affected if artillery/rocket artillery inflicted full damage on units on flat terrain, but I think they already are kinda weak in comparison (+1 and +3 damage when targetting units doesn't make up for the versatility of being able to crush city defenses, imo). Maybe they could get a small buff to damage to make them useful in their niche of attacking units in defensive terrain?

I might need to learn modding to try a few of these things myself instead of bothering modders about their mods :D

Just wanted to add that i`ve got some troubles finding good counters. Fighting against Unique units early on like Montezuma`s eagle warriors or Kongo`s Impi`s is a real struggle. 3 or 4 of them against an unwalled city could smash my defense real fast. I`m not used to this. I actually had to trade units 1 on 1 which is a strange feeling. Its very nice to see. A couple of UU`s just steamwalls trough archers and 1-2 lonely warriors/spearman on defence. I`m playing on emperor right now (usually i play immortal). I did have to savescum 3 times in the first 2 era`s to save myself from losing cities. I`ve found it quite challenging. In my most recent game i`ve noticed that once you get past the first 2 era`s the difficulty drops a good bit. So a boost for the AI might be nice. Gradually more after each era passes. I`ve used mods simular to this and it increases the difficulty.

Olleus,

Just the bare minimium of mods. AI+, Ages of war, pace and a good number of small UI mods (production que, unit report screen, great person portraits and a couple more). I will try more mods some weeks after Rise and Fall goes live. When the once broken mods get updated. I`m used to play with MOAR and MOAR units extended. Which will probably be used again soon. I`ve also used QUO but i dont think it will work with ages of pace/war, so i drop that mod for now as i like my mod combination for now.

I think heavy cavalry is still good, but its situational rather than the best thing to build all the time. Which is what it should be IMO.

Making warfare change around WW1 is an interesting idea. in 8AoW the big change is that tanks now come *before* their counter (Fusiliers are only just above breaking even against them), which makes offensive action easier in that era. And air units come around the same time which enables a far greater concentration of power. Both of those represent the changes in warfare that happened in the 1920s, I'm not sure the timescale of the game enables another big shift just ten years earlier. The artillery suggestion is an interesting one, but I'm afraid it might make the field cannon/mortar line far less important?

Also remember that corps and armies massively change combat too. It gives the civ with the most production/gold the ability to gain huge combat benefits and not be as limited by choke points.

What about hevy calvary units, are they still good?

I love what this mod does to warfare, specially early game. But rules of war changed at the time of the first world war (trench warfare, massive artillery strikes...), and continued to change until today (guerrilla warfare...). Maybe the anti unit role of modern artillery could be boosted when units are in open field to represent this?
Would it be possible to make the anti-unit penalty of modern siege weapons (artillery and rocket artillery) only apply when targetting units in non-flat tiles (no hills, rainforest, woods, encampment or city)?

Thanks @AutismSimulator. Want to share what other mods you use?

Just wanted to say i loved this mod immensely while playing with it this week. It increased my interest in playing civ 6 by a good bit. In combination with couple of more mods i had a real challenge the last week playing the game. My usual tactics of hanging around a wall of archers got bloodely beaten by both Montezuma`s warriors (badass combat strenght) and Scythia mixed forces (both different games). Looking forward to hear more about the mod after launch rise and fall. I`ll understand it takes time as a new expansion should brake the mod in multiple ways. Thumbs up for this great mod

I haven't tested R.E.D. but it ought to be compatible, although the fusilier and mortar units might not be scaled.
@Zenith: Sounds like you need different armies for different situations. That's exactly the kind of balance that makes combat interesting!
As it stands, anti-cavalry units are much stronger than without the mod. Melee might have +2 extra combat strength compared to Vanilla, but pikes have had a large boost and are much cheaper to build and maintain. Swords vs pike is 48 vs 44. That's a very soft countered, a single promotion or defensive terrain or a ranged attack can even that out.
Swords are +4 against pikes when fighting melee/anti cav units, but pikes are +8 against ranged units and cities, and a huge +23 against cavalry units. In the medieval era, pikes are better than swords at, almost, everything. Without that almost, what would be the point of having swords at all?

@Olleus I think that melee land units having +12 vs anti-cavalry units is far too much. It makes it impossible to for anti-cav to fight melee units, even a severely outnumbered melee unit can beat several anti-cavs in a row. This doesn't feel fun or fair, and I believe increasing fun and fairness is supposed to be the point of your mod.

Aneqdote: Early in a game I built many anti-cav units to fight a cavalry-based civ. Later a civ attacked me with a melee-based army. I had more units than the invaders, but since mine were mostly anti-cav, I couldn't even engage the enemy army. I had to cower behind my city walls and watch as the enemy pillaged my tiles. Needless to say, this was not fun, nor felt fair.

The strength difference isn't historically acurate to all eras either, For example durring the Medieval era the majority of the weapons on the battlefield were pikes. This was because it's ineffective to attack several rows of long-ranged stabbing death pointed at you with a sword.

Is this mod compatible with MOAR Units and/or R.E.D?

I would second the changelist in the Civilopedia request. It would be helpful for people who are new to your mod/the game.

do u know what file i need to edit to remove some of the parts from that mod?

thanks, idk if there is that much demad for that mod but i like some of the gameplay changes in that mod that makes it easy for the AI. example: captured builders just die, captured settlers go back to thier city of origin, less war wearniess for losing units during war, all late game units have anti air capabilities, great ppl cant be bought with gold etc.........i just like the changes that helps the AI with the game mechanics. since AI is soo terrible at using the game's mechanics.

@ redmoth27: I'll have a look at that, is there much demand for it?

@ Rams0505: There somethings on which the two clash, but it shouldn't be too difficult to just remove the parts of the other mod that affect combat directly but keep the rest.

is this compataible with this gameplay mod: https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1257361373

is there a way to make it compataible since i like the changes in that mod as well.

I meant a list of the changes just like on the store page but in the civilpedia.

The changes are incorporated into the civilopedia and tech tree, so you will see them there all the time. Do you mean a separate civipedia page just for the changes? I'll admit I'm not entirely sure how to do that, but I will look into it.

Also could you make a list of the changes in the civpedia, its annoying to go back to the storefront to see it over and over again.

Thanks!

I think it still is, but you can't rely exclusively on it. If it's your unique unit it is good to have a lot of it, otherwise I just keep a handful for when the mobility is really worth it.

Is calvary still worth using with this mod, and how expensive is it.

1) Separate one swordsman from the rest of the enemy army. Good way of doing this is by offering bait: place a Saka across a river or on a hill 2 tiles away from a sword. Sometimes the bait will get hurt: a Saka in defensive terrain, or across a river, or attacked by a sword at less than 80HP won't die defending.
2) Attack the isolated swordsman with 3 Saka's on the same turn. That will do a total of 50-60 damage. Position your horsemen to block/create ZoC such that the other enemy swords cannot attack your Saka's.
3) The wounded sword will attack one of your Saka for a fair bit of damage. Kill it next turn and heal most of that damage back up.

tl;dr: Saka's are not a miracle 'free win' unit as before, but when used right are still very strong, even in challenging circumstaces. Now I'm very happy to do small adjustments to unit strengths if many people think they are required, but I'm quite happy with the current state of Saka's.

Yes, I think 15 damage is about right. I ran an experiment this morning and gave myself 4 Saka + 2 Horsemen vs 7 Swordsmen on Immortal. I am not usually an Immortal player, I find Emperor more fun. Still, I killed all of them in about 15 turns while only losing 1 Horsemen (due to the AI surprising me with a switching move) and not losing any Saka. Note that this was a kind of worse case scenario: I didn't build any more units during the war but the AI kept pumping out slingers and warriors (the swords were given via Firetuner so he didn't have the techs for them), and the terrain was very rough. I didn't have any cards/government that gave bonus strength, and didn't gain xp for my units by 'training' them on barbs the way I would normally do. Saka's let you exploit your upper hand exceedingly well, but are less useful if your opponent is stronger than you.

I've got a whole bunch of screenshots on my profile that shows this tactic is pretty effective:

So, you seriously think that 15 damage is good for a unit that is useless in defense and for a unit that can't outrange it's opponents? Why would you want half the damage in offense and instant death in defense when you can just get a normal cavalry unit instead? In situations where they are useful they are no longer needed.

The damage is not non-existant. They can't kill swords immediately on their own, but that's not what they are for! The horses are not for pure hit-and-run (being able to move after shooting was tragically OP in Civ5), they are there to give you the mobility to achieve local numerical superiority. Scythia was (and is) the strongest civ for an early Domination win. This mod weakens them (by rebalancing horses and range vs other unit types), but they are still very good. I'm happy to post some screenshots of me playing Scythia if you want?

They shoot peas and can't escape, what's point of riding horses then?

The damage is non-existent. I don't think you exactly sweep in for the kill if you deal 10-15 damage against swordsmen. The best thing about them is that the enemy is now technically wounded so your units get 5+ strenght against them.

Saka horse is well balanced, archered horseman can't defend in close combat, which is obvious, and shooting while riding a horse is less effective then shooting while standing still, as we're talking about shooting range.

@Olleus I couldn't agree more. Here are some of my ideas:
Heavy cavalry:
- give them bonus for attacking melee units (9 is fine for me).
- remove defensive bonuses from being fortified (cavalry is best at charging, not defending).
- remove defensive bonuses from tough terrain, maybe add penalty for woods, as they can't fight in forests.
- give defensive penalty (9 is fine for me) to compensate attacking bonus, like a Norway's Berserkers have. This would make them specific usage, as in real life, where they weren't for main attack.

Light cavalry:
- make same changes as for heavy, but change melee to ranged/siege units.

Also increased base cost by 25% is fine, but I would reduce maintanance from 2x to 1,5x.

@Tortture: They have 2 more ranged strength than archers and 5 more combat strength than archers. Sure, they have less range, but have speed to make up for it. They are definitely less OP than in vanilla, but that's the entire point of this mod!! Try having a mix of Saka and Horsemen in your army. Your saka first weaken the enemy swords, and your horsemen sweep in for the kill. It requires more tactical skill to pull off than simply spamming them as in vanilla but - I cannot stress this enough - that is the point of this mod.

@Orionos: See the section on mod compatibility above, I don't know all compatibilites with all possible mods. If you're not sure, try it out and see if it works.

Cavalry units are tricky to balance, mobility is simply hard to compare with brute strength. I view cavalry (especially light cavalry) as a counter to range and siege units rather than to counter shock infantry (sword/musket/etc...). But heavy cavalry is actually very good against shock infantry on the attack because of it's mobility, and because of the era it comes in. Knights will absolutely demolish swords. They're decent against muskets even because they can move faster such that, I locally outnumber muskets 2:1 with knights. They are pretty bad at "holding the line" in a strategic defense, but I think that's fair enough.

One change I would like to make is to give all cavalry a little more strength (+3?) but remove their defensive bonus from being fortified or in woods/hills. Maybe I did go overboard with their maintenance, I'm open to cutting it back down a little if lots of people think it's a problem.

They're suicide archers. They can't even survive a single attack from light cavalry nor swordsmen. They don't even deal any damage.