Hmmm
Maybe just keep it as it is. It'll become so much work otherwise.

Any time any one of the dependency mods update a unit entry you'll need to 'delete modification' on that unit, and then re-apply it to have the changes carry over.

I think only Chivalrous Intentions and Ayalins mods are really active currently anyway, so hopefully that reduces the work load.

Any time Ayalin updates the Premium Empire Building mod, Premium Class mods or Premium Defender mod, I have to do the same thing to keep my City Building & Upkeep mod up to date. Can be a real pain.

Even after removing dependencies I can still see additional units in the list so I'm afraid it may be crashing. I can create light version of this mod with just Chivalrous Intentions though.

Damn that's a fair bit of work to cover everything.

Should be able to remove dependencies. But would need to test.
I can't remember if the 'unit build' links are in the same entry as the 'build priority'. If they are it'll either crash or you'll still be able to build the units from the other mods (essentially copying original mod content).

Hat to you for all the mods you released recently. I'll upload it, but the version I created requires Empire Building Mod, Destruction Plus, Archon and Tiefling, Corruptor class, Ayalin's mods and Racial Heritage on top of Chivalrousi Intentions.

Not sure how hard it is to create one just for Chivalrous, if it is only to remove dependencies then I can easily create such one as well.

@GorbadIronclaw

My hat off to you sir. Are you planning on uploading it to the workshop? I'm already a fan!

Unit by unit, don't see any ways to do it tier by tier. Took 3h, but I consider it was worth it.

@GorbadIronclaw

Awesome, did you have to make the changes unit by unit? Or did you find a setting to do it by Tiers?

Downloading and testing straight away :)

Btw - making T4's rare, T3's normal and T1&2's common regarding production priority seems to be working like a charm. AI is way more aggressive and sends really diverse large armies to the front now :)

Should be fine with an existing save game, at least in my tests it has been.

V1.0 out

I've done a fair bit of testing but may still need some balancing going forwards.
The mod has a very different feel to it now, but essentially achieves the same goal.

It feels more balanced than before.
It won't be nearly as easy to stop enemies in their tracks, but you can still pincushion them with enough focus fire.

I've introduced some damaging effects as well. They're less powerful damage wise than in game damage over time effects, but they can stack which may or may not make them OP, will need more testing to see.

Can't wait for next iteration btw. :)

Morale debuff is not a problem in my opinion, as well as lowering attack. In my view it simulates model loss in the squads to some extent (or being overwhelmed in case of single models). Just defence/resistance or major movement debuffs feel way too powerful.

Thanks with advice regerding production bias btw. I'll do some tinkering setting T1&T2's to often and T4's to rare and test how AI copes with it

Thanks Gorbad

9-12 attacks landed would probably guarantee at least 2 defensive debuffs, which would again help with the major debuff.

I'll experiment for a little with the new version before release. It'll definitely feel a fair bit different. Numbers will still give an advantage but bigger tier gaps will become a fair bit more powerful.
I'll leave it so the base morale debuff always applies though.

From my experience I had good chance applying major debuff applying 9-12 ranged attacks by T1's on T4 unit, I would say over 50%. This is just my rough evaluation at the moment though since I've never really properly counted.

I personally don't have a problem with highier tier units being more resistant and having more chance to apply debuffs as I can balance it out with numbers of lower tiers. Plus I'm using mods that increase highier tiers upkeep cost (i.e. 56 gold per T4, 24 per T3) and buff lower tier units significantly. Speaking here mainly about EBM, Racial Heritage, most Ayalin mods + your Tougher Troops implementation. That's of course personal preference and other people will have likely different experience.

How often would you say you apply the advanced debuffs?
And was it generally with T1 troops or stronger?

So I can't split off ranged attacks from melee attacks in terms of chance to apply effects, though resistance checks are still dependent on attacker strength which kind of balances that out a bit.

I have a working version using a strength check of 12 to apply effects which gives most ranged troops a low chance of applying the basic effects unless within their no penalty range / no obstructions.

The trade off for this is it makes the mod less about numbers, and brings it further in line with unit strength i.e. stronger units have advantage because they're more likely to apply the debuffs and less likely to be hit by them.

I haven't done a lot of play testing yet, but this will bring the mod a little closer to the vanilla feel. In fact it might make the tier differences even more pronounced.

I'll try to tinker with units priority if I have time then.

Regarding debuffs - yes, the strong ones seem to be a little bit too much when stacked on top of others.

In terms of abilities I mean free as in they're applied at random automatically i.e. there is no resistance check made to apply the effect.

This makes all tiers as strong as each other when it comes to base effects. Only the advanced effects are tied to unit strength and defence checks. I did it that way to allow guaranteed stacking of debuffs but it seems from your testing that's made ranged overpowered.

I can definitely make it harder for ranged troops to apply the debuffs.

In terms of the debuffs themselves they're capped to a certain pount. -3def -3res -9mov -6dmg -150mor(on top of std debuff)
Maybe these are too much?

@GorbadIronclaw

Production bias can be changed per unit card as far as I'm aware. Similar to buildings and research. The main problem is there's at least 15 different package files containing units, and like you said adding Chivalrous intentions in multipies the total units by at least a factor of 10. Then consider updating when changes are made in Chivalrous intentions and it becomes a pretty big headache.

You don't need deep modding knowledge to find this. If you open the package manager, load up the Title and DLC packs, then open the package editor you should be able to get to all the base game unit .RPK files. If you load in Chivalrous before opening the package editor you'll have access to all those units as well.

The modding guide which you can find online has step by step on accessing and modifying units.

Shame that AI modification is not possible, it is what it is though. Changing production bias for Chivalrous Intentions alone would be a massive undertaking, so I get what you mean. Is it easily done in the unit stats card btw or does it require some deeper mod manager knowledge?

Don't quite get what "free" debuffs mean, but regarding splitting melee and ranged chances - it is exactly what I mean. Melee combat is not a big problem as you need to get close and risk getting debuffs yourself, ranged is OP because you can apply a lot of debuffs with no risk involved.

All debuffs that lower defence, resistance and movement feel really powerful since you can stack them and quickly immobilize and melt through toughest oponents with sufficient firepower.

RE the AI. If only there were the tools to properly fix them.
Production bias can be changed, but eould have to be on a unit to unit basis, which would also need a patch for any other unit mods.

Even with that change, the AI behaviour in terms of how they form and move armies, when they attack, and when they defend can't be changed through the modding tools. As far as I can tell there's little to no tools to change AI strategic behavior.

@GorbadIronclaw
The easiest eay to separate ranged units would probably be to make two different resistance checks for the basic debuffs. A higher check value for melee than ranged.
At the moment all the basic debuffs are free, this would make them less so and more random. Is that similar to what you have in mind?

Is it specific debuffs that feel overpowered? The other thing I could do is change the weighting of debuffs making some more likely to fire than others.

Have been extensively testing this mod lately and I find it way too easy to defend towns with just T1 archers since they are able to effectively cripple any units getting remotely close to the walls. Is it possible to tune down debuff chance on ranged units (mainly 3 shot abilities)?

Also AI has got hard time coping with unit spams since it focuses on T4 production and tends to attack towns with lot of low tiers and being crushed in consequence. Perhaps changing AI's unit tier production priorities to lower one and forcing it to use a lot more units in attack would help.

All good, at least it was an easy fix

Good to get the feedback, its really hard to test the impacts of everything solo

Turned ou to be V-mods hero morale which I totally didn't expect. Just going to turn it off without bothering, as it does not bring that much to the table anyways.

All my Orcs have the combatant ability.
An easy way to check is to go to the tome of wonders and look through each of the units. If this mod's effecting them correctly they will have the 'Combatant' ability displayed in their tome of wonders entry.

Maybe you can figure out a pattern of the units it's not working for, that might help you find the incompatibility.

Otherwise I can up the Priority Load, but you'll just end up losing whatever was overwriting this mod. Better to patch it when you figure it out.

What's the highest priority load of the mods you have now?

Hard to pinpoint as I have over seventy mods installed. Ones I could suspect would be Empire Building Mod, perhaps Return of Wonders. Some archer units seem to be missing trait too,so could add to that Noin's Mod and Global Archer Nerf.

@GorbadIronclaw

I can change the priority, it won't affect my mod setup at all but not sure about others.

Any ideas on what you think might be overwriting it?

When i get a chance I'll double check those units in a game. Been playing Orcs a bit and didn't notice it, but only had the enforcer so far.
I don't play with Empire Building so can't comment on that.

What I found just accidenally is that Orc Enforcer and Orc Torturer from Chivalrous Intentions together with Orc Heavy Pikeman from Empire Building Mod are missing the trait and not applying debuffs on hit. Don't know about other examples but would guess there are some.
Perhaps priority issue?

@ avenger711

What GorbadIronclaw said about simulating the battered stat of units is a good example of how this changes up combat dynamics in general.

It doesn't necessarily make T1 units stronger, it makes fighting with numbers, positioning, and team tactics stronger.

Even if you have the strongest unit, you can get it killed against the AI by getting it out of position and beat down.

For the cost of one playthrough, I'd give it a go and see how you feel.

@ GorbadIronclaw

It should work with everything that uses the vanilla unit categories - i.e. irregular, infantry, cavalry.
If a mod adds a new unit category it won't be covered by this mod, but it'd be easy to patch for.
The ability group is made separately from the unit list, so the 'Combatant' ability can be added to any new unit group as well.

It'll be compatible with new abilities as well, all my entries were made in DLC 2 pack which no one really touches. On top of that the entries have a large gap between vanilla entries, so it'd be pretty unlikely they'd be shared with another mod.

Where this won't work, is if you've got a mod that changes the abilities that are applied to a whole unit group - i.e. a mod that gives all Dragons a new base trait, or all Irregulars an extra ability.

I use this with Chivalry, PBEM, and all of Ayalin's mods and haven't found any compatibility issues so far.

For myself I use a lot of mods, many of which have buildings buffing low tier troops (mainly EBM and Ayalin's Premium Empire Building) so low tier units can be buffed and repersent some force to be reconed with. What I like in this mod is that it somewhat simulates damage taken and battered state of units which are being focused, and that is actually regardless of tier.

I have one tiny question though - is it compatible with mods adding units and abilities?
From my experience some units from let's say Chivalrous Intentions seem to have "Combatant" skill, while others not.

I make my own small mod and my second map for now. I think giving additional advantage against higher tiers can make teching up unnecessary.

@avenger711

Just for the fun of it :)

T4s can also beat up on lower tiers with bigger debuffs due to their strength advantage causing them to land Overpowering strikes easily. It makes combat more dynamic in general.

Are you saying I shouldn't have made the mod??? :(

It's not so hard to kill 1 T4 unit with just 6 T1 units using just flanking and spreading the damage. Can be problems with fearsome or life stealing but normally 6 units attack to get only 1 retaliate strike and on the next turn the enemy has no action points and vulnerable to flanking.

So I don't understand the reason of such a mod. 1 T4 unit costs 300-500 resources and 6 T1 units cost about 300. And reaching for T4 requires researching and bulding class structure for 200 gold and 500 mana. Or huge investment in a dwelling. And after that you can't speed up the production which makes dragons practically useless.