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Hearts of Iron IV >  Workshop > Black ICE's Workshop > Blackice HOI IV TEST > Discussions
Blackice HOI IV TEST
Description Discussions80 Comments2330 Change Notes
bacononaboat 12 Jan @ 9:04pm
2
2
The New Dockyard Limits Need to Go
I originally made this a comment but I feel like I need to make it a discussion too because I feel very passionately about this. Navies are really important even in vanilla for certain countries but especially in Black Ice and right now it's messed up very badly due to the recent dockyard limits. The change goes against historical realism, which the mod is for, against player fun because the build times are horrid, and against balance because it hurts smaller nations like Japan or Italy even more. I'll explain more below.

1. This dockyard limit makes building screens, way, way too slow especially when considering the capital to screen ratio. Starting construction on a Somers class DD on the 4 May 1937, and it completes 9 June 1939. 2 years for a single destroyer? This isn't historical, in the least bit. Actual Somers class destroyers were built in ~6 months, took me one minute on Wikipedia to figure this out.

2. I don't know if the devs nerfed capital ship construction speed too but I'm quite annoyed to see that by laying down a new carrier in May 1937, it won't be ready until May 1942, five years later. USS Hornet was laid down on 23 September 1939, and commissioned on 20 October, 1941, so two years and 1 month. So, just 1 more month to build a carrier in real life than a single destroyer in this mod now. If this gets improved in some way I'm missing, I apologize.

This feature is so bad I'm not surprised people are reporting it as a bug. What's worse is that it hurts smaller nations like Japan and Italy even more. Like sure they can get their capitals out but good luck getting out enough screens at a reasonable rate to defend them.

This mod is amazing and mistakes happen, and I like y'all are trying new ideas, but this one needs to go back to the drawing board, or the trash can.
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Showing 1-15 of 27 comments
Hellfish6 13 Jan @ 7:11pm 
Completely agree, but I'd like to know what the reasoning for this change was too. Maybe if it's explained it will all make sense? Maybe the US (and UK) are special cases and the decision was based on playing Germany or other relatively minor naval powers? I've always had the sense that the mod focuses on Germany before all else (and with the player base, maybe that makes sense?) and the naval production system makes sense from that perspective?

This link below is important from my perspective - just how absurdly productive the US was in WWII. Right now, with the naval production system as intended, this is either impossible or intensely impractical to even come close to in this mod, and that's acknowledging that amphibious ships aren't a thing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_in_World_War_II#Ships
#1
Sol Inherent  [developer] 13 Jan @ 8:17pm 
Its not that large of a change, instead of gaining 1 Destroyer every X months, you now get 3 destroyers every X*3 months; requiring a bit more planning ahead.

Next version will have the UI properly show the NIC limits
#2
mk11 14 Jan @ 7:15am 
Somers 2years 5 months from laid down to commissioned
Warrington 2 yrs 4 months
Sampson 2yrs 4 months
etc.

The early Fletchers took 9 months the later ones 5 months. How much does the USA speed up ship production?
#3
AngelusDD 15 Jan @ 12:31pm 
My question for the change is: Does the AI understand the new system as well?
#4
Sol Inherent  [developer] 15 Jan @ 2:32pm 
yes
#5
christoph.melcher 17 Jan @ 10:34am 
I totally agree with the others. These change is too much. Ships in the second world war never took so long. Tonight me and a friend wanted to start a new game but about changes of the navy, we are so dissappointed that we will try a other mod tonight. BICE was the best HOI mod i ever saw. Please not destroy it with those changes
#6
Nasa space creator 19 Jan @ 2:21am 
Are diminishing returns possible for this, so the USA can crank out its carriers like fast food while also awarding planning for more constricted nations?
#7
kamenev 21 Jan @ 1:00pm 
Fixed here: https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3412002749
#8
ThorThundergod23 26 Jan @ 9:56am 
Originally posted by Sol Inherent:
Its not that large of a change, instead of gaining 1 Destroyer every X months, you now get 3 destroyers every X*3 months; requiring a bit more planning ahead.

Next version will have the UI properly show the NIC limits
It's not about the amount of time to produce a ship, it's about the clicks i as a player have to make. This might be more historically accurate (which others already put in question with historical numbers) but it is extremely labour-intensive for the player
#9
BANJOGM 28 Jan @ 4:38pm 
I totally agree as a regular player of USA. It removes the option to prioritise builds and gives unrealistic build times which historically were being made quicker and quicker as the war progressed. This is removed by this change. There is a sub-mod that removes this new change restoring the old way by the way.

As it is the USA cannot in this game ever reach the ship numbers and varieties that were actually built during the war period. For example 24 Essex Class carriers were built along with 11 CVL's, let alone well over 100 CVE's. This new change only makes achieving anyway near these numbers even more impossible. So no way does it allow for historical builds anyway.
#10
mk11 29 Jan @ 2:43pm 
At the start USA will produce a Somers class DD in 39 months. With all tech and national focuses that will be down to 15 months. So the initial state is about 30% too long and the final state about 200% too long.

I don't think it is the number of dockyards that is a problem so much as there aren't enough speed ups for the dockyard output / reduction in IC cost for the USA.
#11
scottsman99 1 Feb @ 6:00am 
Originally posted by ThorThundergod23:
Originally posted by Sol Inherent:
Its not that large of a change, instead of gaining 1 Destroyer every X months, you now get 3 destroyers every X*3 months; requiring a bit more planning ahead.

Next version will have the UI properly show the NIC limits
It's not about the amount of time to produce a ship, it's about the clicks i as a player have to make. This might be more historically accurate (which others already put in question with historical numbers) but it is extremely labour-intensive for the player


This is my main issue with the direction of the mod - and why I've turned to others - "playing" this mod is starting to feel more like work instead of play. Aircraft designer has been out for years now, but has not been added to this mod. Every update restricts what the player can do even more, adds more mouse clicks to get to where you were before. It's just a grind now.
#12
UnknownAl 1 Feb @ 8:38am 
As Germany, if you go naval focus, your first small carrier gets out a whole year later than before, and due to focuses locked behind it, it weakens the them incredibly.
Also some minor issues with timing, before you made your big ships first and then smaller as close to the war you got, now you have to wait longer for your smaller support ships to get done.
Aside from these factors it's fine, if not a little annoying.
#13
Cpl. Upham 3 Feb @ 6:58am 
I'm agree with Sol. I'm playing with Italy and I did't notice all this difference in terms of timing. I just built 3 DDs in 3 months. Persoally I prefer to have parallel buildings instead of serial
#14
LanceteKk 3 Feb @ 7:38am 
Originally posted by Sol Inherent:
Its not that large of a change, instead of gaining 1 Destroyer every X months, you now get 3 destroyers every X*3 months; requiring a bit more planning ahead.

Next version will have the UI properly show the NIC limits

It actually is a large change. It was tedious enough to assign the appropriate amount of naval yards to ships that are in the queue when you start, it is quite tedious to balance the refineries and trade every month - but i can get behind that since it actually improves the options for the player.

The naval dockyard limit is a good example where an attempt of more accurately depicting the real world directly conflicts with the main goal of a game (fun) by adding a recurring task that has negligible impact on the gameplay but is rather annoying to the player. Sure, one could argue that doing more clicks for comparable results in the production screen equals more fun - but i would not agree.

It also doubles down on the horrendous production system in hoi4. Why is the production screen getting clogged by 10 destroyer entries in the first place, Paradox? That is one issue, but making it worse by tripling the amounts of destroyer entries i have to scroll over seems like a strange design choice, especially since it, as you stated, is a minor change gameplay wise.
Last edited by LanceteKk; 3 Feb @ 7:42am
#15
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